EMIStream: Addressing EMI Issues Early in the PCB Design Stage

EMIStream is now available as an Altium Designer® extension. TechDream CEO Yoshi Fukuwa will tell us how EMIStream can be a lifesaver when addressing EMI issues in your PCB design. Watch through the end, and check out Yoshi’s recent presentation at AltiumLive Connect.

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Show Highlights:

• Yoshi founded his company TechDream in Silicon Valley in 2002. Techdream offers EMC, EDA, and PCB solutions. They also carry EDS simulation tools and PCB materials from Oak-Mitsui technologies
• EMIStream was developed by NEC Solution Innovators in Japan about 25 years ago; they tapped TechDream to sell the technology in the United States to help engineers with their EMI problems
  • 150 design rules to solve EMI problems narrowed into 15 most important EMI data and rules implemented in EMIStream
  • Yoshi Maruyama from NEC Solution Innnovtor is the main guy developing EMIStream in Japan
  • EMIStream’s EMI design rule check and plane resonance analysis are available in the Altium Designer environment
• Yoshi explains the two features in EMIStream
  • EMI Design Rule Checker
  • Plane Resonance Analyzer
• Field Solver approach vs. SPICE approach
  • 3D field solver is very good and accurate, but it takes longer to analyze
  • EMIStream’s SPICE approach is 20 times faster than a standard SPICE engine
• What do you need to know about embedded capacitance materials?
• Yoshi reveals the number one problem in PCB design during a survey at AltiumLive
• The benefits of SPICE net format in EMIStream
• Catch Yoshi at DesignCon 2022. He will be joining the FaradFlex booth

Links and Resources:

Connect with Yoshi Fukawa on Linkedin
Watch Yoshi’s AltoiumLive 2022 Connect Presentation: Eliminate EMI Problems at Design Stage, Robust EMI Design Rule Check & Plane Resonance Analysis
Visit TechDream Website
Learn More About EMIStream
 

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Transcript:

Zach Peterson:
Yes, I can see the challenge of getting that to be very seamless and integrated.

Yoshi Fukawa:
But a very unique kind of concept and maybe could be a game changer, very innovative solution.

Zach Peterson:
Hello everyone and welcome to the OnTrack Podcast. I am Zach Peterson, I am your host and today we're going to be talking with Yoshi Fukawa, CEO of TechDream. Also, a distributor for NEC, and we're going to be talking about his recent AltiumLive presentation, a new extension for Altium Designer and some other very interesting things with regard to EMI, SI and PI. Yoshi, thank you so much for joining us on the OnTrack Podcast.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. Zach, thank you for having me on my birthday.

Zach Peterson:
Oh yes, that's right. You told me today would be your birthday.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, happy Valentine's Day. It's my birthday boy.

Zach Peterson:
And of course today on the day we're recording it also just happens to be Valentine's Day.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
Works out like that sometimes doesn't it? And so just recently, a couple weeks ago you were presenting at AltiumLive and I was at AltiumLive as well although I'm pretty busy myself. I didn't get to see every presentation, but it was nice to talk to you afterwards on Zoom. And you had said that there was a new product that you guys have available as an extension for Altium Designer users. So, maybe we can get started and you can tell us a little bit about that.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. So before that, I would like to introduce myself first.

Zach Peterson:
Oh yeah, of course. Sorry.

Yoshi Fukawa:
That's okay. So, my name is Yoshi Fukawa from TechDream. I started TechDream back to 2002, especially focusing EMC, SI PI, and also EDS simulation tool and also PCB materials based in Silicon Valley, California. Actually not this year we are celebrated 20 years. How time flies. And then what we carry is, as you said, EMIStream from many, which is to this main topic for EMI design world check and apply resonance analysis software. But also we also carry near field EMR scanner from API and another PCB materials from Oak-Mitsui technologies, which is built capacitor material or FaradFlex, and also high speed alloys material from ratio in Japan. They are celebrating after a hundred years old. Very old company in Japan but let's actually focus on EMI stream today for Altium design.

Zach Peterson:
Sure. So I think maybe some of the newer designers don't necessarily realize how the industry is set up like this, where you may have the larger vendors that build some of these tools or materials, but then you have folks kind of in the middle that are responsible for distributing and marketing these tools and really connecting people who have problems to those solutions. I think before we maybe talk about EMIStream, how did you get involved in this?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. EMIStream originally NEC in Japan, as you know NEC is a JN company in Japan developing some products like telecom products, several routers and computer, but also some consumer electronics, like a PC, laptop, cell phone, a smartphone, but they were facing real worry my problems. And then their internal EDA design team and the EM team that collaborated together to develop EMIStream. I think almost 25 years ago, they started using EMIStream inside of them in NEC, but started selling EMIStream outside of NEC in Japan. So they have maybe...I don't... very number of the users in Japan. And then they asked me to sell EMIStream in United States to help engineers facing EMI problems.

Zach Peterson:
I see. So it seems, I don't want to say that EMI is necessarily a new problem, but it seems the company has both you and then also NEC has a pretty rich experience addressing EMI, EMC problems with these kind of simulation solutions.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. They had originally maybe 150 design rules to solve EMI problems, but they narrowed down in the focus on only 15 very important EMI data and rules and the implemented EMIStream.

Zach Peterson:
So 15 important EMC, EMI rules and when someone takes a list of 150 and narrows it down to 15, I sometimes wonder how did you decide on those 15? Was it a survey of engineers, or?

Yoshi Fukawa:
That is very good question I have to ask NEC. But I think based on their experiment and the simulation they had. They built a lot of variation board with, for example, return current path discontinuity or bus split plane or high speed rates or decoupling capacitor. They built the different evaluation board to see the decoupling capacitor location, and compare with a simulation result experiments. And then, so they boil down to very important EMI design rules. So that, they reach to 50 rules.

Zach Peterson:
I see. So the way this kind of works is one of the features, because I, you mentioned a few different features in the intro, but I think the way, or the way I understand an EMI design rule working is it's checking the layout for design choices, which might be electrically correct and manufactureable but they could create an EMI problem.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, that's right. Even passing DLC, we call DLC or [inaudible 00:07:03] DFM. We may still have actually EMI problems here from the bad layer to a bad stackup so it's really important to follow. I got a good EMI design rule.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. And I know that in kind of the double edged sword of CAD tools, as I've mentioned before, is that they let you create just about anything within the limits of their resolution. It's kind of up to you as the designer, working with a manufacturer, working with a test engineer or a simulation engineer to actually determine whether or not that's going to hit number one, your performance specs, and then number two, whether or not you can actually produce it.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, because without passing EMC standard, they cannot launch the products, just that very critical situation. And usually for the last minutes, just before launching the product, we find an EMI problems. And then we have to go back all the way to maybe design aschematic stage or layout stage to fix my problems. So it's better to consider EMI at the earlier design stage to shorten the time to market.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, I totally understand what you're saying. And I think kind of applying the concept of design rules to EMI is actually really powerful because essentially what you're doing is you're pinpointing something in the PCB layout and saying, "That's what the problems going to be. You should fix that."

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
Because I think the tendency is when you have a product that you're ready to launch and you finished all your prototype spins and you're on the last one, you're ready to go into EMC testing and it fails. What the tendency to do is to just throw every possible solution you can think of at the design until now it passes your next round of EMC testing, which, I mean, those tests are expensive people don't just do those for free. So I like this idea of being able to actually have a system that says "We check these 15 common things or however many common things" and then it points out "Okay, that's what's likely going to be a problem." And you go in and fix that.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yes. Especially few very important, most important maybe design rules, including return current path discontinuity, high speed rates crossing power, and ground plane. So we have to keep the loop area minimized. So we studied the large loop area, generate higher EMI and also high speed rates or bus split plane is also actually very important to actually avoid to lead EMI and also decoupling captors very important. And other checks are differential payer check. If we have actually trace lengths difference or have phase difference subside due to you skew, we may have a higher EMI. So that's, current actually EMI design rule checks. It's very important to mitigate EMI.

Zach Peterson:
Now we, you brought up to decoupling capacitors because I've had some exposure to a couple of different tools that try to either essentially calculate an optimum and then check what you have against that or what they will try and do is they'll look at where they're located. And then if they're located incorrectly, they'll recommend where to place it or they just calculate where the near field emission is. And then it's kind of up to you to figure out where to place it. I mean, how does the decoupling capacitor feature?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, we have actually two features for decoupling capacitor check. One is actually physical location decoupling capacitor location check, as you know, closer to the power pin is better to locate place decoupling capacitors, but not only a distance between power and one... No, power pin to decoupling capacitors, but it's important. The grounding stitching vias to the decoupling capacitor is also important. So, EMIStream checks the distance between power pin and decoupling capacitors and decoupling capacitors to the grounding stitching vias why a physical, the layout check. But another check is we also have a power plane resonance analyzer, which we can see the hot spot for the resonance between power and one plane.

So, if we have higher resonance subside it causes EMI and not only EMI, but also actually [ICMAL 00:12:18] functions. So, we have actually enough decoupling capacitor, but EMIStream using peak method, Partial Element Equivalent Cycle model to divide power plane into LCGL circuit and using spice simulation we get a very hotpot on PC power plane. So we can see the decoupling capacitor effectiveness on power playing except PDM. And so we can, if we have very hot spot, we can move decoupling capacitor onto the optimum location to reduce resonance, or we can add decoupling capacitor, or we can even reduce eliminated decoupling capacitor for cost to saving, to reduce resonance subside to minimize EMI.

Zach Peterson:
So with the power plane resonance feature, that's actually really interesting because I've read some journal articles and I actually, I wrote an article on the Altium blog that links to a journal article that does what you're saying, which is essentially sounds like you're creating a lumped element circuit RLCG model. So kind of a transmission line model [crosstalk 00:13:40]...PEN

Yoshi Fukawa:
A bed spring model.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, no, I know the one you're talking about. Where you have the inductors in 3D and then surrounded with capacitors. Yeah, I've seen that. So that's actually really interesting because with a computer obvious or I mean, if you try to do that by hand, it's a totally intractable problem, but you're essentially running a spice simulation to solve this in a 3D structure. That's really interesting because I would've thought that if you have a 2D layout of the power and ground plane pair, you could basically just do a 2D boundary element simulation or maybe 2D Maxwell's equations, whatever it may be in that structure to get the residences. So what made you guys opt for the spice approach versus a 2D field solver approach?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Oh, 3D field solver is very good too and also very accurate. We can get accurate result, but the problem not problem, but it takes longer. The simulation time is very long. So EMIStream main concept is very easy to use and the very speedy quick analysis, because we may want to have many trial and error type of analysis where if actually decoupling capacitor, so we change the decoupling capacitor value or change the distance between power and plane. We may want to try a lot of kind scenario. So we really need very fast simulation speed. So any...

Zach Peterson:
And now I see the value of a spice model because if you can just add a capacitor in, you're just adding it right there into the spice model.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, and those are developed faster spice engine, sorry, 20 times faster than standard spice engine. So I think if you installed a plane resonance analysis will be surprised how fast started plane resonance analysis.

Zach Peterson:
Okay, that's excellent. Because I mean, like you said if it's a field solver approach, unless you can do some dimensionality reduction or geometry, complexity reduction. You're right it does take a long time. So that's, actually interesting that you take the spice approach.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. When I do power plane resonance analysis or PI for FaradFlex embedded capacitor material, I have to do many simulations with different thickness, different Dk material. So actually I really, really need a faster simulation trial and error analysis.

Zach Peterson:
So yeah. So that's, what I liked about the spice methodologies. You essentially can do the parameter sweep like you would it in some other commercial spice packages or even open source spice packages, but you essentially automate that so someone doesn't have to build up the model themselves.

Yoshi Fukawa:
That's right.

Zach Peterson:
Is kind of what I'm hearing.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, that is correct.

Zach Peterson:
Okay. So are those the only features or did you, I think you mentioned your field EMI as well?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Near-field EMI. Actually we have another feature from power plane resonance analyzer, which we could predict the Far-field. Far-field EMI from PDN structure because PDN power plane becomes per antenna to radiate the EMI from the H or the PCB. So since plane resonance analyze can calculate the voltage along with the H and using Maxwell's third equation, we can predict the Far-field EMI from the period structure. So we can play with a different decoupling capacitor placement or different stack up to see the Far-field from PDN.

Zach Peterson:
So, and when you say different stack up including, let's say another power ground planeg there to try and add some plane capacity.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, or change of thickness between power and the plane. Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. And I think most designers who don't do high speed professionally, or maybe they're just learning, they don't know a lot about embedded capacitance materials. Could you tell those folks in the audience about embedded capacitance materials and how PDN simulations play a role in what they're used for?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, that's right. That's how I show the customers how to use the embedded capacitance material because using embedded capacitance material, we could eliminate decoupling capacitors like a 0.1 microfarads, we could eliminate maybe all of them. So that of simulation is a very powerful tool to kind of trial and error it with analysis.

Zach Peterson:
Sure. So, these materials are, I mean, they're essentially just high Dk materials?

Yoshi Fukawa:
High Dk, and very, very thin materials starting from one mil or less.

Zach Peterson:
Sure. And then high loss or moderate loss?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Loss is actually... We have meet loss, 0.015 loss and we also have a lower loss material, 0.002 kind of lower loss material. But for PI, we may want to have a higher loss to the resonance.

Zach Peterson:
That's what I was just going to get at because for PI purposes between the power and ground plane, you'd actually want loss. And I think whenever we talk about high speed, so many designers queue in on saying, "Well, you need to have low loss laminates throughout your stack up and you need to have low decay values." But those two things are actually counterproductive when it comes...

Yoshi Fukawa:
That's right.

Zach Peterson:
...to power and integrity.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yes for power and integrity. Yes.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah. Okay, great. So as I mentioned before you guys were at, or I, was it you and a collaborator who were speaking at AltiumLive? Were you guys doing demos of the EMIStream?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Co-speaker you mean?

Zach Peterson:
Yeah.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Co-speaker was actually from another Yoshi Maruyama, from NEC solution innovator. Yeah, I think he's the main guy for developing EMIStream in Japan.

Zach Peterson:
Okay. And so the EMIStream extension, I mean, people can go and download it today and start doing PI simulations?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. Just last week we released officially. So, if you go to Altium Designer and go to license extensions, and then operates, you will see two extensions, one is EMI design rule checker, and another one is plane resonance analyzer. So you can try actually...

Zach Peterson:
So the EMI... Oh, sorry go ahead.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Go ahead.

Zach Peterson:
So the EMI design rule checker, does that happen inside Altium Designer? It's essentially another set of design rules or does that have an external application?

Yoshi Fukawa:
As an extension when you open Altium Designer and open PCB doc file, you will have another menu in two bar, with EMI design rule check and plane resonance analysis. So if you click EMI design rule check automatically converting PCB doc file to ODB++ file and then opening EMIStream.

Zach Peterson:
I see, got it. Yeah. Super simple workflow just accessible right there in Altium Designers. So that's, great. And so what other tools and solutions do you work with that actually help people solve their SI, PI and EMI problems?

Yoshi Fukawa:
SI, PI, EMI what I carry is another product is for EMI we have EMI scanner from API which is using robot to detect EMI from PCBs. Actually, we have a interface between EMIStream and API Smart Scan. So, if you get the hot spot with a measurement from Smart Scan, but we don't know actually what's happening in the... What causes actually EMI root cause we cannot find. So we overlap the measurement result with the EMIStream and actually identify the root causes why it's radiating. So we have now interfaced between EMIStream and the Smart Scan. Another one, as you said, embedded capacitance material to improve SI, PI and to reduce EMI. And we have another simulation to from overall, which is actually cloud based SI, PI simulations. And also another one is azose, actually low frequency millimeter wave azose and inquisitive EMI Shielding.

Zach Peterson:
Release you can print EMI Shielding directly onto your device instead of putting a shielding can on the device.

Yoshi Fukawa:
That's right using inquisitive printer to reduce the weight and the height of the...

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, because certain conformal coatings have enough absorption at certain frequencies to be decent EMI shields. So I think that's a natural extension to go to just we're going to inkjet print shielding on certain parts of the PCB to help suppress EMI or also guard against reception of external noise from some external source.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, but that's a really new technology. We have a lot of challenges, but now we are overcoming from [inaudible 00:23:55] to ... still RMD stage, but...

Zach Peterson:
Well, I'm sure one of the challenges is a really seamless integration into the manufacturing process.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, that's correct.

Zach Peterson:
Because you wouldn't necessarily be printing something like that on a finished assembly, would you? Or would it just be on the bare board?

Yoshi Fukawa:
After assembly.

Zach Peterson:
After assembly? Okay, so it would be on the PCBA?

Yoshi Fukawa:
But we have to install a printer machine into the contractor manufacturing assembly line. So that's, one of the challenge.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah. So it has to come out of, out of SMT possibly go through cleaning and then go into a printer.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yes.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah. Yes. I can see the challenge of getting that to be very seamless and integrated.

Yoshi Fukawa:
But a very unique kind of concept and maybe could be a game changer, very innovative solution. So...

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I definitely, I think something like that is a better alternative than something like a board level shielding, because first board level shielding obviously big and bulky, you have to plan for it in the layout. But then with board level shielding, it's kind of killing a fly with a hammer. It seems to me to be kind of the caveman's way of handling EMI, this is a bit more sophisticated.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. And in a good thing for technology, we can apply not only shielding, but because before shielding, we have to apply the isolation layer... Direct layer actually to avoid a short. So, in the direct layer we can also apply the kind of magnetic material, fair title material to absorb EMI, not shielding EMI, but absorb EMI like EMI absorber sheet. So we have a lot of kind of unique features. So opportunity not only EMI shielding, but also EMI absorption or maybe thermal. If we put the thermal high thermal conductive filler in the shielding layer, we can actually also solve thermal problem with high thermal conductive ink. So this is very kind of unique. Cool.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, that is very unique. It almost seems companies have to develop these solutions because the laminates are so stuck in the past. The most advanced I think we can get with laminates are something far FaradFlex where it's essentially just embedded capacitance material or Rogers where they're getting the super low loss for RF materials. And so they really just address DK and losses, but they don't address anything else. So you're bringing up absorption of EMI, board level shielding, and then now thermal. And so I kind of wonder, what's taking the laminate guys so long to give us any more advanced laminates. It seems everyone has to come back and do something like this, but they're printing a specialty material onto the PCPA or is it just an issue that so many designers, they may not need those solutions and so there's not a lot of market impetus to develop them.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah. So, I mean, what are some of the major problems that most designers site having, I guess when they're looking for these kinds of solutions, is it thermal, is it SI or is EMC the most popular?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, that's interesting. Good question. And we did a survey during AltiumLive. The question is, what is your challenge of your PCB design EMC or SI, PI, ESD, or thermal? Do you know what was on top number one?

Zach Peterson:
Probably EMC.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Oh yeah. That's right.

Zach Peterson:
It's really the core of all the other problems except for thermal, right?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. Say the answer is... I think we put EMI, not EMC. I think EMI, but yeah. EMI was the actually most challenged.

Zach Peterson:
And where did thermal fit on the list?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Well, I don't know why, but the thermal PI is not so many actually on the bottom number fourth. I think EMI, SI, ESD, thermal and PI. I remember PI thermal.

Zach Peterson:
Interesting because the PI problem really is an EMI problem.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
And so you have to wonder how many of those EMI people actually have the PI problems and so should PI be higher on the list?

Yoshi Fukawa:
I guess many Altium user is maybe a small size company, midsize company. I think very, very high end company are facing PI problem with high end products. That's maybe one of the... But I don't know. I don't see.

Zach Peterson:
Maybe that's an explanation. But I also wonder how many designers actually have pinpointed that their EMI problem actually is the PI problem.

Yoshi Fukawa:
I think regardless of the frequency range or high end or a low end, everybody may face EMI problem.

Zach Peterson:
Oh yeah, of course. [crosstalk 00:29:49]

Yoshi Fukawa:
Based on the frequency

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because it can happen anywhere.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah and especially once it's related to routing or something and you route something incorrectly, you don't just see it at one frequency. Let's say you're routing a digital signal incorrectly and you create a huge burst of EMI. Well, then you see it at all frequencies because it's all the harmonics.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah and very...

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, that would make sense why EMI, EMC is such a broad problem.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. So maybe for high end companies, they have their own EMC department and the EMC engineers. So VTR who can solve the EMI problem, but small size, mid size companies, they don't have a specific EMC engineers. So usually [inaudible 00:30:33] electrical engineers or hardware engineers has to design not only circuit, but also tackle with EMI, EMC problems once they fail the EMC standard. So it's very important to consider EMI at the earlier design stage and also to educate WEOR PCB deadlines as for good, very good routing work stack up for EMC. So that's, very important.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And to be honest, I kind of thought thermal would not be near the last, I thought it would actually be more of a challenge than ESD, but you said ESD was actually high.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. So many...

Zach Peterson:
That's interesting.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, ESD.

Zach Peterson:
So I think with ESD I mean, does EMI scanner help at all with tracking where a device might experience ESD problems?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. Actually smart scanner has a capability of actually checking ESD immunity scan, and a current spreading scan. We can actually ESD problem, but EMS team also has a ESD rule checker. We haven't already released yet, but we have a specific module for ESD rule checker. So we will release, I don't know when, but maybe in a couple of months or in a year, but we have a ESD rule check as well.

Zach Peterson:
Well, anyone who's interested in learning about all of this, please check out the show notes. We're going to link to the AltiumLive talk. We will link to some information on the new extension and we'll link to some other great resources that'll help you learn more about some of these tools. Also, Yoshi, do you mind if we put your LinkedIn profile on there so that people can contact you?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
Okay, great. Yeah, we'll do that. And that way people can reach out and learn more and hopefully get a demo.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
So one last question I have with bringing the board into your tool or into the extension, I should say, because you're doing a spice based simulation for EMI, EMC and for resonance analysis, all of the components matter. So they need to have some kind of equivalent spice model attached to them. But of course manufacturers don't always release that or you have to build it yourself or maybe it just doesn't exist. And so as a designer, you're focused on the layout, so you just leave it blank. How does the program deal with that?

Yoshi Fukawa:
For simulation model as I mentioned, we use a big method. So for PDN model, we don't need any actually model for components model we only needed capacitor model. So we...

Zach Peterson:
That's, it just capacitors?

Yoshi Fukawa:
We use spice net format which has ESL and ESR and capacitance value. So we already have a default capacitance value. Default library so you can rely on using these parameters. But if you have, you can import the spice net library, from TDK, Murata, they provide their own equivalent socket model spice net model. So you can actually import set into the EMIStream. But I actually, I investigated with different capacitor models from TDK, Murata, [Toyoto 00:34:18] and Samsung with their own spice model spice format with the standard model EMS three model, I didn't get significant difference. So I think maybe you could rely on standard auxiliary model, the default models and simulation, so that auxiliary you don't need to set many models. It's actually setting models, capacitor models, most time consuming work. So actually EMIStream automatically import Altium Designer with capacitance value or a part name automatically set into EMIStream. So it's easy, very easy, easy setup.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah. And, and I suppose if the model doesn't exist, I mean, if it's a small enough package the via inductance is going to dominate, so that's taken care of. You have the capacitance value because it's a parameter on the part so that's taken care of. And then if you wanted, you could just assume what 10 milliohm equivalent series resistance or something like this. So it's just... So that makes, I think that actually makes a lot of sense why especially once you get to small case components, it's not going to make a huge difference.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, of course. If you want to have more, a great after the result, you can set up a great auxiliary capacitor model.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah. And that's great that you guys have all of that information from vendors. Because I like you said, I know that going through and trying to assign models to every part in a board can be very time consuming.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah. That's right.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah. Okay. Well this is great information and we're definitely going to link to as much of this stuff as we can in the show notes. And this has been a very interesting discussion and I hope all of the listeners in the audience will go download EMIStream, will contact Yoshi to get some more information and hopefully get a license to use the extension. Yoshi, thank so much for joining me. I know I first met you at PCB West a couple years ago. I'm hoping I'll get to see you at PCB West or PCB East this year.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Year or maybe DesignCon coming April?

Zach Peterson:
I'm thinking I'll be hitting DesignCon this year. I've been asked so many times if I'm going and I've never gone. So I definitely need to go.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Oh really, you should come. We'll have a booth.

Zach Peterson:
Okay, great. Great. Oh, you guys are going to have a booth?

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
Oh excellent. So are you guys going to have the API setup or the robot setup?

Yoshi Fukawa:
They haven't decided yet, but for sure. [inaudible 00:36:51] for FaradFlex booth.

Zach Peterson:
Oh, I'll have to say hi to Robert.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
Well it would be cool if you had the robot set up because I mean that's half the reason you watch the exhibition for to see all the equipment.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Yeah, that's right. I have to convince actually them to exhibit.

Zach Peterson:
Thank you so much, Yoshi again.

Yoshi Fukawa:
Thank you so much.

Zach Peterson:
And I hope everybody enjoyed this great talk and for everyone in the audience tune in next time for the Altium On Track podcast, don't stop learning and like we always say, stay OnTrack.