Achieving Diversified Electronics Supply Chain

In this episode, we continue discussing diversifying the electronic supply chain. Our guest Case Engelen the CEO of Titoma shares his insight about moving some of the manufacturing to other Southeast Asian countries and South America. 

Watch this episode now and check out the show notes and additional resources below.

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Show the Highlights:

• Case Engelen introduces himself and his company Titoma
• Offshoring, onshoring, and diversifying supply chain, why do the majority of components manufacturing may stay in China for 5 more years?
• Building prototypes and optimizing your design following the factory’s specifications
• Case talks about the importance of component architecture early during the design phase
• The difference between how US and Chinese market their product and their selling strategies
• Diversifying manufacturing in Southeast Asia and South America, Taiwan is a little more expensive than China, but Columbia is more competitive when it comes to cost
• The advanced manufacturing capabilities in China are quite hard to beat
• What is “bifurcation”?
• What do the future of electronics production and sourcing and procurement look like?

Links and Resources:

Connect with Case Engelen on LinkedIn
Visit Titoma Website
Watch the Previous Related Episodes:
    Mastering Your PCB Design Tool as the Industry Evolves with Stephen Chavez
    Mitigating Risk Factors for PCB Manufacturing Lead Times
    Data Security, 5G and Onshore PCB Manufacturing with Dr. Rob Spalding

 

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Case Engelen:

And for example, a connector, you can go with the official Molex connector or you can go with a connector that is from some local brands that is a third of price. And, yeah, if you're making 10,000 of them, then it becomes useful to know that these kind of alternatives are there.

Zach Peterson:

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Altium OnTrack podcast. My name is Zach Peterson, I'm your host. And today we're going to be talking with Case Engelen, founder and CEO of Titoma. Case is someone who I've followed on LinkedIn for a while, and I'm very happy to have him here on podcast. Case, thanks so much for joining us.

Case Engelen:

Yeah, great to be here, Zach. We're a great fan of your work.

Zach Peterson:

Oh, well, thank you. We try not to bring up my work on this podcast. I like to bring up the guests' work a little bit more than my own.

Case Engelen:

We're a great fan of Altium as well. It's definitely our favorite tool.

Zach Peterson:

Well, Altium is pretty great. That's why we're here today. But I think, for the moment, maybe you could introduce yourself to our audience and tell us a bit more about Titoma.

Case Engelen:

Yeah, okay. I'm from the Netherlands originally, but I moved to Taiwan about 25 years ago and first worked in industrial design. But about 20 years ago, I started Titoma, which stands for Time to Market. And basically, we help western clients to do the complete design, engineering, prototyping, certification, all the way to manufacturing of electronic products. And we focus on embedded products in general.

Zach Peterson:

How long ago did you found Titoma?

Case Engelen:

It's about 20, 21 years.

Zach Peterson:

And originally founded in Taiwan as like a contract manufacturer?

Case Engelen:

Yeah. We're a bit like a niche ODM, so we do both the design and the manufacturing.

Zach Peterson:

I'm sure working in Taiwan for that amount of time, you've had a chance to see how the landscape for electronics manufacturing has evolved over that time period.

Case Engelen:

Well yeah, the biggest change has been that over the years, a lot of manufacturing went to China. And a lot of my friends were saying, "Why are you still in Taiwan?" And I've worked a bit, I've worked in Shanghai, I've worked a bit in Dongguan and other places, but I still always preferred living and working in Taiwan. And now, actually, the whole trend is reversing a bit and a lot of production is coming back to Taiwan again.

Zach Peterson:

That's interesting because in that debate about onshoring versus offshoring and geographic diversification of production, I think a lot of folks are saying it should come back to the United States, Europe, maybe a bit more onshore. And then others are talking about greater capacity in other areas of Southeast Asia and then even some areas like Central America. And then in India, there's actually a lot of investment. I'm seeing a lot of the broadening of the production base.

Case Engelen:

Yeah, that's correct. Final assembly you can do in Timbuktu or wherever is convenient for you. But for me the core, especially for electronics, is the components. Because if you look at the total cost of a product, electronic components, be it be with resistors and ICs but also displays and cable trees and sensors, all of that for a very large part still comes from China. And that will actually continue to do so for the next, I'd say five years at least, and probably longer because of its humongous installed base. And so yeah, you can do final assembly somewhere else and that makes sense, first for tax reasons, import taxes, and having more control over being closer to the final process. But you need to be very good at getting all those components to work together nicely, play nicely together. And that is easiest done where they all come from because if you're shipping a whole container full of displays to Utah and then try to assemble them there and there's an issue, then you have to send them all the way back. Whereas in Xinjiang, you just send them down the road and next day you got them all fixed back together again. So that makes a big difference.

Zach Peterson:

That's funny. You bring up shipping it all the way to Utah and then having to pack it up and ship it back if there's a problem. I think we kind of take it for granted that if we're going to get a component, whether it's a display or some other sub-component or a module, whatever it is, that if it's sold on the open market, then it should work. And so I don't ever think we plan for the need to send back a big batch of components. So how many of those supply chain considerations are built into that choice to produce closer to where the components are? Is it really just a time to market and being able to return components if needed or are there are other considerations?

Case Engelen:

Yeah, well you have all your DFM considerations, but it's true that shipping becomes an increasingly bigger part of that. And if you're assembling right in the middle of all these component factories, that's the easiest thing obviously, especially in the design stage. I mean when you're just developing a product, you don't really know which display or which sensor you're going to end up using. You're testing out different options for value for money. And it also depends on which factory is most helpful in doing a bit of customization, modifications and that all. But what the fantastic thing of the greater China ecosystem is that there's within an hour drive, there's 10 different alternatives and that means that everybody is ferociously competitive. Service is really fast. Prices are very affordable and that's what people call the China time of development. Mold making in China tends to be done in five weeks or so and in the U.S. it can be, or in Europe it can be a lot longer. So my take now forward is do the first generation, your first production run in China, get all the components together, make sure everything is mature and then you can ship it to wherever makes most sense for you in terms of tariffs or other considerations.

Zach Peterson:

I think with prototyping, this is another thing that we take for granted because with prototyping, maybe you're doing a small run and the assembly costs and even the board fab costs are sometimes a much more significant portion of that prototype cost than just the cost of your little display module. And so we don't really worry so much about what happens if you have to ship it from China over to the U.S., then you get it assembled locally and then you test out your prototype. But you know, what you've brought up here I think is pretty important for companies who are planning to produce at thousands or tens of thousands of units, which is once they go to scale, where are they going to produce that so that they can do this in an affordable way and get their gen one product out there so that it's competitive.

Case Engelen:

Yeah, yeah. And so what is important is also that a lot of the components in China are not necessarily on Digi-Key. And the way we personally do it is that we make a first prototype of a product, get it to work, and then we share our bomb with our factory partners in China and they will suggest to us a lot of alternative components. And for example, a connector, you can go with the official Molex connector or you can go with a connector that is from some local brands that is one third the price. And if you're making 10,000 of them, then it becomes useful to know that these kind of alternatives are there.

Zach Peterson:

I think a lot of folks who are costing out that path to scaling don't know about all of those alternatives that are out there because it is tempting to just go to Mouser or go to Digi-Key and look at what the volume price breaks are and plan out your production that way.

Case Engelen:
 

Zach Peterson:

But it almost sounds like I could put together a bill of materials, give it to someone like yourself, you can shop it around to the folks that you know overseas and they could line by line go down and say, well, we can give you A, B and C options at half, a third, a quarter of the price.

Case Engelen:

Well, not always, but of course connectors are a very good item. But there are certainly a lot of advantages to be had. And the interesting thing is that the cost structure also depends on which factory you're talking to because a certain factory may get at the end of the year if they do make their target and they do sell or buy 10 million connectors, then they get an additional 20% off. And that is something that you're not going to see on Digi-Key. But this factory is going to be very motivated to persuade you to spec that particular connector and they will share the revenue with their clients because they need to make their target. And so I once had a client I talked to and I said, well, we first want to do the DFM in Canada because we were working with Jabil and they have a plant in Canada, and then once it's done there, we're going to move it to China.

But that doesn't really work because DFM is not something that is a universal truth. It's very much optimizing for a specific factory and its specific supply chain around it. And the way they like to do things in Vancouver is very different from doing it in Xinjiang or in Taipei. And so if you're optimizing the DFM for Vancouver, then you're optimizing for the way cables are made in Vancouver and you're optimizing the way molds are made in Vancouver. And every factory has their own little thingies and hangups from the past, oh, I'm never going to do that again, so we always use this component. And these are just the intricacies that you really need to involve your factory as early on in the process as possible. Well, no, I want to correct that. You should iterate your prototypes until you have what you really feel that does what you need it to do, but then you should get your factory involved before you go over the endless final fine tuning.

Zach Peterson:

That's really interesting because when we talk DFM a lot, whether it's in webinars or design guides or whatever for PCBs, I think we focus a lot on fabrication and then we say get your fabricators' capabilities so you don't put  too close together. You don't violate their line width and spacing rules and things like that. And I think that makes sense and it's a little easier to translate one design from one factory to another, but you're bringing up a whole other set of product development issues. You know brought up cables, so I'm going to assume cables and harnesses is what you would be referring to there. What other considerations are there that could really derail you?

Case Engelen:

Yeah, there, there's lots of details on, I mean you know how many details there are on just PCB fabrication, and on cable length fabrication. And for example, one factory will work in an assembly line and other ones they do a more modular fashion where they do first those modules and then next day do that step in the process and maybe the length of your cable will have an influence on that. And for every step in the process or every component that you use, there are considerations that you need to check. And basically, you know how you have tolerance stack ups? The final assembly, that is where all the tolerances on all the 256 components, be they plastic or metal or PCB or electronic components where all this display comes together. So that's where a lot of fun goes on.

Zach Peterson:

Yeah, that's really interesting because the designs that I work with, I'll be honest, when it comes time to scale, we hand them off to a partner that is kind of like yourself. And once the design has been prototyped and tested and perfected, we kind of step back once that cost optimization in the design is finished and they're handling a lot of these things with enclosure and cables and connectors and procurement in all of this. And so I don't really see that end of it. So this is really illuminating to know that the factory that you're going to work with could have these kinds of assembly issues that spans beyond just what goes on in the PCB.

Case Engelen:

But also the first step really is your component architecture. Are you going to spec a camera from Digi-Key or are you going to talk with your factory who knows a camera that has the same performance, but is a lot cheaper? And that is something you really should decide very early on because you're going to spend months optimizing your firmware for your camera performance and you don't want to optimize in the wrong direction, right?

Zach Peterson:

No, I agree with you, certainly. And having that visibility early into what the options are, I think is very important. So I'm wondering if someone is planning out this system architecture and they want to do just what you said, which is get all of those camera options that might not be out there on Digi-Key, how do they find all of that, so they at least have a short list of what some of the best options will be before they go to an ODM like Titoma or before they just go to a design firm?

Case Engelen:

Talk to us. That's always good.

Zach Peterson:

Well, of course, of course, yeah. I'm saying just like some of the front end research. What can someone do?

Case Engelen:

Well, there are a lot of websites of course also on Chinese components like Taobao is a very well known one, and there are other Chinese websites. They only don't always have an English interface, but with Google Translate you can get the gist of most of it very quickly. So for the key components, you absolutely should do that research really early on. But to be honest, I myself, I don't do that kind of research that much. You really should talk with our CTO Leo, who can tell you a lot more about that maybe in the next episode. But in general, for the more obscure components, yeah, we are very lucky with the partner we have in China. They have this whole circle of old friends that they know from university and they have this WeChat group. There's about 150 of them, and anytime somebody needs some obscure this or that or magnets or whatever, you actually, you don't want to buy it from Taobao or from Alibaba or something because on Alibaba you don't know really whether the factory or if they're any good.

Zach Peterson:

You mean it's totally counterfeit?

Case Engelen:

Possible too. Yes, especially with components, there's been such a hype recently and there's been such a coming down now everything is easing up a lot. So what they're doing is they're talking to their friends, does anybody know a good supplier for this or that specific component? And then they come with a recommended supplier, and yeah, that is the old Guanxi network and it sounds very corny. And to be honest, to be very honest, we have a really good relation with our factory. We've been working with them for eight years, and I have had lunch with a factory boss three times in eight years, so I've never gotten drunk, I never did karaoke with him or all that stuff. We just have a very good working relationship. So in that sense, you don't need the mystical Guanxi, but for this kind of thing, it's very, very useful.

Zach Peterson:

That's so interesting. They'll send out a component request and somebody says, oh, hey, we can make it or we have it, or I know a guy who can get it for you. And they figure it out and they manage to sell it to each other or buy it or get it to you. At some point it gets to you guys.

Case Engelen:

Yeah, I mean, once a supplier comes recommended, it's sort of like somebody vouches for him and when you screw up with him that you get problems with that guy. So that does help to keep everybody honest.

Zach Peterson:

It's such an interesting way of doing business because we focus so much on having a digital presence here in the U.S. and making everything searchable so that it's really easy to find those types of suppliers without having to go to this kind of exclusive group. So I'm a little surprised to hear that this kind of thing exists.

Case Engelen:

Well, there's another thing. A lot of factories, they are not so keen on dealing with pesky foreigners asking lots of difficult questions and wanting support and all that. And if you-

Zach Peterson:

They just want to sell the stuff and move on.

Case Engelen:

Well, they want to sell it by the boatload. They want to sell a million. But I mean, if you look at IC supplies like Broadcom or something, you have to sign an agreement, I will never ever, ever ask for any support whatsoever, before they will sell to you. And for some products, you much better off buying them via factory than trying as a smaller, I mean, we typically build in 5K, 10K batches. And for a lot of or component factories, yeah, we're not going to discuss with them directly. But if you're talking for example about Ambarella camera modules, very high end, very good, but there are only two design houses in the world that are Ambarella approved. And that costs about half a million to a million to get them to do something for you. But a more economical way is to work with a factory that is already established with Ambarella and that has their tweaking equipment in place and that already has a buying purchasing volume with Ambarella. And that's the way the big component players actually prefer it. They don't want to deal with all the small pesky question askers. They want to deal with a couple of big factories who know their stuff, and only the very difficult questions get passed up to a higher level.

Zach Peterson:

I wonder how much this reflects the production environment overseas versus like here in the U.S. because I can go on to Digi-Key and I can order a single resistor if I really want to, you know, a 2 cent resistor and pay the $27 shipping charge or whatever, and have that one resistor shipped to me. No way, it sounds like-

Case Engelen:

Sure, sure, sure, no, but it gets difficult when you want support. That's where it gets difficult.

Zach Peterson:

Well, sure, sure. No, I understand that. I mean, I mean I'd have to, my best case would be to go to the manufacturer of that one resistor, and maybe they have a forum where I can ask a question from another user, or maybe they have a knowledge base where I can search and maybe I'll find the response that I'm looking for. But it sounds like because so much production overseas is higher volume, that they only want to deal with high volume people. They don't want to deal with the person that wants one camera module.

Case Engelen:

And so I mean, if you're making capacitors or resistors or little doodads, there's more than enough demands dealing with the 200 large factories, and for them it just doesn't make much sense to translate everything into bad English and then put it on a website somewhere because you're only going to get more questions from all these English-speaking people. And a lot of them just prefer to keep it for the local, and that's where the big factories are.

Zach Peterson:

Interesting. Okay. That's really revealing as far as the supply chain environment in China, because it seems, well, I'll be honest, it's something I'm not familiar with. I've never had to deal with those kind of folks in China.

Case Engelen:

Yeah, yeah. But if you look at Apple, for example, they used to spend months in China to optimize the DFM for their devices on the line in China to really, yeah, there's so much DMM optimization that needs to be done. And the basic design is done in California, but a lot of, nearly all the design optimization DFM done in China in combination with all the engineers there.

Zach Peterson:

Well, I know that with this debate around geographic diversification, whether it's Southeast Asia or somewhere else, the supply chain environment has to be able to support that. So if someone were to go to Mexico or South America, what is the supply chain environment going to look like? Are we going to have that same kind of ecosystem of component distributors and manufacturers to draw from, or is this going to be another situation where somebody has to order it all from Digi-Key, ship it over to wherever the factory is, pay the tariffs and customs duties, that kind of thing? What does that ecosystem look like?

Case Engelen:

Well, we are now starting manufacturing in Colombia, actually. We have about 40 engineers there now, and we have done some first batches and it's actually going very well. And it's a bit of an unusual country for electronic assembly, but very bright people. So yeah, I mean the big thing with logistics is the famous one missing component and the line stops, right? So what we are going to do is just make sure that everything works fine where it is assembled now, and then ship everything as a kit to wherever you want to do the final assembly. I think especially in the beginning, that is the safest option and it's also the most cost-effective option. And in many countries, I mean, I don't know how many display makers there are in the U.S., I don't think an awful lot, and certainly not in Latin America. And so you still are going to need quite a lot of components to continue to come from China. I prefer to import them just as one complete kit from there.

Zach Peterson:

Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Given that any type of investment in whether it's PCB production and assembly or component production, is a long-term investment. What are the growth prospects looking like in a place like Colombia?

Case Engelen:

Well, we are very optimistic there because a lot of people are saying, can you manufacture anywhere else but in China? And so we've moved quite a few products to Taiwan and do a final assembly there. And that is of course the easiest way because it's so close to China. And that is also if something is missing or for example, some housings are not correct or something else, you can get a very good quick follow up. But once it gets more mature, then we can look at further away options. And Taiwan, Taiwan is a very nice place, but it's still a bit more expensive than China, whereas in Colombia we're getting quite close to China cost levels. So that's very encouraging.

Zach Peterson:

So, clearly-

Case Engelen:

Did I answer that correctly, or?

Zach Peterson:

Well, I think so, but I have a follow on to that. So I mean, clearly people are responsive to the idea of producing outside of Asia. And I guess what I'm wondering next is given the ecosystem that is available to you in China, and it is clear that there is some value to that, what are some of the biggest value adds for going outside of Asia? And you mentioned cost is one of them, so costs are getting more competitive compared to Taiwan. But what are some of the other value adds?

Case Engelen:

Of us as a firm or?

Zach Peterson:

Well, you guys as a firm or in general?

Case Engelen:

Well, our type of clients are mostly people who just say, we make software, or we make glue, or we make something else, and we want to focus on doing the marketing, and you guys do all that hardware stuff. And so we are an end-to-end solution. Yeah, you start with the beginning in mind, which is the components. And like I said, for the next 5 or 10 years, I do think that China's position in components is going to be very important. So we will continue to be working closely there. But another thing is that by working in different time zones, like in Latin America and Colombia, we can work with our clients in California very easily in the time, same time zone. So that's where we do our firmware and hardware design. And in Asia we do a little bit of electronics as well, but mostly more on the housing and the logistics, working with the mold makers, doing all the prototypes, that kind of stuff.

Zach Peterson:

One of the, I think challenges of moving somewhere like the U.S. or Colombia or even elsewhere in Asia is access to some of the most advanced capabilities. And when I say capabilities, I'm talking more about board fabrication. Have you guys been able to bring some of the more cutting edge capabilities over to Colombia, or is that something where if you needed to do, let's say multiple HDI buildup, you would work with a partner in China?

Case Engelen:

To be honest, right now we're looking for 10 layer Rogers PCB, and that is hard to source. I mean, we have one candidate now in Italy and one in Taiwan, but it's hard anywhere. And we certainly don't find that kind of capability in Colombia. So anything that is difficult, we're going to get where we can find it. And anything that is easier and voluminous, like plastic housings, packaging carts and all that, we're going to source local as quickly as possible.

Zach Peterson:

Well, in terms of the PCB fabrication, I'm hearing a little bit of a bifurcation, and this is something that some industry groups in the U.S. have talked about repeatedly. So we've talked to folks from PCBAA and we've talked to folks from IPC, And that the bifurcation in the type of products that you produce locally versus overseas requires that you bring some of those more advanced capabilities locally. And it sounds like we're still behind on that. And I'm wondering what it would take to be able to build up that capability so that way you didn't have to go to China if let's say you weren't allowed to, let's say it was covered under ITAR for an American client, or you wouldn't have to go to Italy where maybe the cost becomes untenable.

Case Engelen:

Yeah, yeah. Well, one of the things that determines the country of origin, for example, for one client, we must do the PCB assembly in Taiwan, and then the importation laws determine that the brain has been done in Taiwan, so it's made in Taiwan. And even though the housings and the display and the this and thats come from China, the brain is there, final assembly's there, so it's made in Taiwan.

And if high end PCBs can only be done in China, then it's going to be a lot harder to make it count as made in the U.S. You really need to justify adding enough value in the U.S. in terms of other components and so on. But yeah, you have a whole specimen of lawyers that focus on that. But what is interesting, we are now working on a product that is, it's a specific LED, and it has a harmonized importation coat that classifies it as a LED module. And recently there's been some changes and that means 25% import tax. That's quite a bit of money. And so now we're doing the next generation, a similar product, and by making the LED removable, it's no longer the module, it's a lamp, It's an LED lamp with a removable module. And then the tariff goes from 25 to 2%. So now we're doing design for importX. So it's a new category that we didn't have yet. is designed for Amazon. We designed, seriously.

Zach Peterson:

Come on.

Case Engelen:

Seriously. Something we did wrong, we designed a dog feeder and clients said, I have these big Labradors and I'm using dog feeders, but they want to get to the food. So they go  and they get the food, right? So it has to be Labrador proof. So we designed something that was very wide and about 80 centimeters wide and Labrador proof, unturnoverable,, and great. People were very happy with it. But then later copycats came out with also automated dog feeders built in , but they were this small. And it's a lot cheaper to ship on Amazon if it's this small than if it's this wide. You get into very high rates. So designed for Amazon, that's another one on the list.

Zach Peterson:

Yeah, normally DFA is designed for assembly. So maybe DFA can start also being designed for Amazon and design for import tax. I would've never thought that. I guess we're just adding to the DFX acronyms here.

That's so funny. So what do you think is convincing companies to broaden out their production base and their supply chain geographically? I mean, COVID I think was a big wake-up call just in terms of the demand shock that all of the later stimulus produced. And it's kind of woken everyone up to the fact that, hey, maybe 50% production in one part of the world doesn't make the most sense. So I think that's part of it, but I'm sure there are other factors at play that customers care about. So what are some of those factors? Do they discuss that with you?

Case Engelen:

Well, there are some companies, especially if they're security or government related or where we're making tracking bracelets that go into the prison system. And recently China has not done much to make itself more popular in the west. And so there's some concerns about those type of products now and the handling of the whole COVID, the supply chain disruptions, that has been-

Zach Peterson:

The zero COVID policy?

Case Engelen:

Yeah. Yeah, it went on for quite a long while. I think a lot of people began to doubt a little whether, because China's always been very pro business and the zero COVID policy seemed to be more of a personal, yeah, this is my dogma kind of issue, and to the detriment of the whole economy. And that made a lot of people pause a bit, I think. But yeah, they've now reversed that stance luckily, and things are getting back on their feet, so that's getting a bit better.

Zach Peterson:

So given the challenges in the supply chain internationally, what does the future of electronics production and sourcing and procurement look like? Are more companies going to have to have a broader footprint and consider some of these options in other areas? One of the things that the 3D printing industry has always tried to tout as a value add is that you can produce closer to your customers. Is that going to be the big value add for electronics, let's say OEMs or any other company that needs to produce something? They're going to look broader internationally so that they can produce closer to their customer as long as the supply chain can support that?

Case Engelen:

Well, yeah, but I mean in Japan, they always wanted to do just in time because nobody likes stock, right? So nobody likes to sit on towers of inventory because it's a lot of cash that you have to lock in there. Yeah, I'm not so sure. Another thing is you, for a big multinational like Samsung, it's quite easy to set up a plant in India or wherever they want to be because they're going to have about 20 key suppliers that they just say, hey, we're going to be in India. We're going to start next year. And if you guys want to continue to supply, that's where you need to have your plant, and it needs to be within our industrial park basically. And okay, Samsung, million units a week, sure. They go and do that.

Zach Peterson:

Well, yeah, I mean when Samsung or Apple says jump, you say how high.

Case Engelen:

But the thing is, if you are more of a little guy and like us and you're doing 3 or 5K a month, you're not going to get all those suppliers to come to India. And the most obvious strategy still is go where the suppliers are.

Zach Peterson:

I think that's great advice, and hopefully anyone who is looking for that advice on navigating the overseas supply chain and production environment, they can come to you. So we'll have some links in the show notes where folks can get in contact with you, if that's all right.

Case Engelen:

Yeah, yeah.

Zach Peterson:

All right. That'd be great. Thank you so much for coming on today. We've been talking with Case Engelen, founder and CEO of Titoma. Make sure to subscribe to us on YouTube. You'll be able to keep up with all of our episodes and tutorials as they come out. And of course, if you have any comments or questions, make sure to leave them in the comments section. And finally, don't stop learning, stay on track, and we'll see you next time.