Eliminating Nuances in the PCB Manufacturing Processes with Amit Bahl of Sierra Circuits PCB

Welcome to the very first podcast of the year! Altium has been very serious about designing WITH manufacturing, and so our guest for today is Amit Bahl, the director of sales and marketing at Sierra Circuits. We will talk about his passion for promoting sophistication on the PCB manufacturing floor. Watch or listen on the go; this will be fun!

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Show Highlights:

• Amit first exposure in the PCB industry
  • He grew up around printed circuit board (PCB)
  • First to install a DFM tool called Valor
  • First to install an LDI machine or a laser direct imaging machine
• PCB is the backbone of electronics
• The PCB designer must see a PCB factory. Sierra offers a virtual tour of the PCB factory
• Customers drive the PCB manufacturing level of sophistication and high standards
  • PCB designers must push the envelope and be more courageous with their design while understanding the maximum capability of their manufacturers to receive better products
  • Equipment vendors need more motivation to make improvements
• Sierra Circuits offers PCB Fabrication, Assembly, & Components
  • Connecting the dots from a technological and logistical standpoint
  • Semi-automated Customer portal - real-time feedback to customers on how to improve their designs
  • DFA and DFM starts when complete data is on hand
• The most common feedback or mistakes in the PCB manufacturing floor
  • The aspect ratio of plating a via - what is the fabricator’s capability?
  • Drilling copper - where do you drill? Optimizing the drill to the material movement.
• A good fabricator will know the best material to use
• Getting the available stackup early on - knowledge base of the standard materials on stocks
• Manufacturing tools and resources for designers
  • 99% success rate - eliminating nuances
  • Impedance tool
• PCB Manufacturing Pro tip: Talk to your fabricator and understand the details - take the time!
• Sierra Circuit’s new website and good knowledge base
• AltiumLive Connect was successful! Watch recorded sessions here.

Links and Resources:

Connect with Amit Bahl on Linkedin
Visit Sierra Circuits Website here
Experience Sierra Circuits Virtual Factory Tour
Register to Join AltiumLive Connect EMEA
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Transcript: 

Amit Bahl:
I would like to recommend that PCB designers be a little courageous in their designs in 2022. I would recommend that to be a New Year's resolution for them.

Zach Peterson:
Well, what do you mean by courageous? Do you mean just pushing the envelope in terms of what your capabilities are? Getting right up to the edge or maybe pushing a little over?

Amit Bahl:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, understand what is the edge of the envelope for your fabricator and push him there.

Zach Peterson:
Hello everyone, and welcome to the OnTrack podcast. Today I am talking with Amit Bahl, director of sales and marketing at Sierra Circuits. I think it's going to be a really fun conversation talking about DFM, talking about design outputs, and also some of the initiatives the company is developing to provide even more resources to designers. I'm really happy to get started. Let's go.

Zach Peterson:
Amit, thank you so much for joining us on the OnTrack podcast.

Amit Bahl:
Hey Zach, how are you?

Zach Peterson:
I'm doing great. How are you?

Amit Bahl:
Fantastic. Happy New Year.

Zach Peterson:
Yes, Happy New Year. This is actually the first podcast of the new year, so it's very exciting, at least the first one that we've filmed in the new year. So this is going to be interesting, especially given a lot of Altium's focus on designing with manufacturing, we want to have people who work at manufacturers on the show like yourself. I see you a lot on my LinkedIn, so it's very nice to actually talk to you on camera instead of just commenting through LinkedIn.

Amit Bahl:
Absolutely. It's a pleasure to be here. And I think we all have the same mission to educate designers and bridge the designer community with the manufacturing community. So it's a pleasure to be here and talk about these important topics.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, absolutely. You're not the first manufacturer that has been on the show, but you are pretty prolific. And I think the company is pretty well known around the web at least. You guys have a lot of resources that really help designers. I think a lot of the focus on helping designers get through manufacturing successfully is really important. One thing I wanted to ask you is actually how did you get into the PCB industry?

Amit Bahl:
Oh Lord. My dad started Sierra Circuits in 1986. And I was a little lad at that time. So my summer vacations were spent running the drill machines and packaging circuit boards and all of the things that no one else wanted to do. So I basically grew up in circuit boards, yeah.

Zach Peterson:
That's really cool. And then you went and did it as a career. I grew up in a cabinet shop running a different kind of drill press.

Amit Bahl:
Awesome.

Zach Peterson:
So I'm glad I didn't end up as a cabinet maker though. It's more to do it for fun rather than as a career.

Amit Bahl:
Absolutely. But yeah, I had kind of an odd entry into the PCB industry, so it's actually interesting to hear someone that grew up around PCB shops and actually manufacturing.

Amit Bahl:
Completely. Yes, every single thing that the company grew into was like the first of, so we were one of the first to install a DFM tool called Valor. We were the first to install a LDI machine or a laser direct imaging machine. There was a lot of firsts that I saw through the years so that always made it exciting. And being in a manufacturing plant growing up, you have a lot of dads and you have a lot of people telling you what to do, so that was interesting. Never a dull summer.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, I'm sure it's similar to a cabinet shop, but probably a lot more interesting than sweeping up dust.

Amit Bahl:
There's PCB dust.

Zach Peterson:
That's true. That's true. I think for some people the manufacturing floor for a circuit board shop can seem maybe a little intimidating, different than what you would expect. Because when you think electronics manufacturing, I think everybody's mind goes to semi-conductors and they imagine the bunny suits and the guys at Intel or AMD or wherever and not necessarily PCB shops. But without the PCB, why do you even have computer chips?

Amit Bahl:
That's so true. That is so true. Yeah, the PCBs are literally the backbone of electronics. There's a lot that goes into PCB, PCB design and PCB manufacturing, so there's a lot to talk about. One thing that I encourage always is to do a tour of your manufacturing facility. So you'll see firsthand what does it take to build a circuit board? And it's not an exact sign still. So the industry's been around for a long time, but it hasn't really caught up to the level of sophistication of a chip manufacturing. So it's still an art form in a lot of ways to build a circuit board. So it's a lot of people dependency, process dependency and equipment dependency. So it would be interesting, if you haven't toured a PCB fabrication facility definitely do that. And Sierra offers a virtual tour, so you don't have to leave your desk. And in the age that we're in, you can get a tour virtually and walk the factory with us. So I encourage people to do that.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, I seem to remember seeing that at your booth at PCB West a couple years ago. I believe you guys had something like that there. That was pretty cool.

Amit Bahl:
Yeah, yeah.

Zach Peterson:
You get to see the video of the guy over pulling something out of etching vat. And that was pretty cool.
Amit Bahl (06:02):
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
But you brought up something important, which is the level of sophistication in PCB manufacturing. Why do you think that is? Why is the PCB manufacturing space, I guess you could say, behind in terms of the level of sophisticated? Is it just investment? Is it attention? What do you think that is?

Amit Bahl:
Ooh, that's a good question. I have my opinion. So my opinion is that the PCB manufacturing hasn't gotten the level of investment by the manufacturing equipment vendors that is truly needed. So we're constantly trying out new equipment and may be good, may not be good. So we're buying a new piece of equipment, testing it and throwing it away if it doesn't meet our standards. And standards are really driven by the customers. So I think that two reasons, one is people are a little shy, customers are a little shy of pushing the edge of the envelope sometimes because they want every board shop to be able to build their design. So sometimes they're not pushing the envelope in that direction.

Amit Bahl:
And then the second thing is that the vendors who supply us our equipment, they're a little slow on the uptake. So it's all about the OEMs or the individual PCB designer. If they're pushing an individual fabricator, they're really also pushing the industry. And so they have to be a little courageous. So if I could go back to New Year's resolutions, I would like to recommend that PCB designers be a little courageous in their designs in 2022. I would recommend that to be a New Year's resolution for them.

Zach Peterson:
Well, what do you mean by courageous? Do you mean just pushing the envelope in terms of what your capabilities are, getting right up to the edge or maybe pushing a little over?

Amit Bahl:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Understand what is the edge of the envelope for your fabricator and push them there and be okay with a little learning on both ends. But don't do it just because. Do it because it's going to equal a better product, a smaller total package size, or more optimal use of space constraint. Whenever that's going to get you a better product, use that and push yourself and push the fabricator and be okay with a little hiccup. Because everyone learn is that way. That's how you learn.

Zach Peterson:
That's fair. That's fair. I think quite a few shops may balk at that a little bit. I think they want to make sure that they always have high yield because they want someone to come back. And so maybe they are a little more conservative with their DFM recommendations. What do you think?

Amit Bahl:
Yeah, that definitely can be an issue. Our culture is that we'll take on projects that are a little outside of our comfort zone, but we let the customer know that, "Hey, this is a little outside our comfort zone. We're not going to get 100% yield. Is that okay?" And the designer can make that choice that it's not okay for this project or it is okay for this project. For example, we're doing a rigid-flex with embedded resistors capacitance materials and that's a challenge, but the designer knows that they're going to have a huge payoff at the end of this project. And we're learning how to use this material properly in a rigid-flex environment with heavy copper. And that's something that both we benefit from as well as the customer. So if the designer chooses their areas that they want to focus on and push the envelope on and work with their fabricators, I think it's good for everybody.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. And as far as capabilities, it seems that even though the capabilities have advanced over the last 30 years, it still seems really disparate. You don't have the drilling machine talking to the SMT line. You know what I mean? Whereas if you go into a semiconductor facility, everything is really highly integrated.

Amit Bahl:
Yeah, I think that's a great point, Zach. So the first thing that we do when we get a design, since we're a fabricator and an assembly facility, we look at the design from both perspectives because traditionally these are two separate vendors for a designer and they don't really talk to each other, they actually point fingers at each other when some issue happens. So we get the benefit of looking at the design from fabrication and assembly. So we'll look for things like component overhang or do your vias need to be filled with a non-connective epoxy for proper component placements so that your solder doesn't weaken the hole. And so we'll look at things like that. And so you have to connect the dots, both in these two independent processes from a technology standpoint, as well as a logistical standpoint.

Amit Bahl:
So one example of technology is when a PCB is built, you have to scale the material. And that scaling data is what needs to go to the assembly facility to build a proper stencil because just because your Gerber data or ODB data says that this is where that pad should be, after you build the board, the dimensions don't line up exactly to the Gerber data anymore. So if you're building your stencils off of the Gerber data and not off of the scaled working data, then your stencil's going to be off. And sometimes that can actually cause lots of problems in assembly. So to your point, a lot of integration is needed both within a PCB fabrication facility itself, as well as across fabrication and assembly.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, that's actually a good point because I think a lot of people are used to working with a fab house and maybe they communicate with their assembler. Here where I'm at in Portland, one of the fabricators that I like to use, they're actually kind of joined at the hip with an assembler, even though the assembler is a different company. But they still have a really close relationship. So the fab guys at least know what the assembly guys care about.

Zach Peterson:
Now there have been other projects where it's like I've got a fabricator, because I'm doing something on Rogers and they can turn it and six days, whereas the other guys are going to take three weeks. So I'm going with this other company for fab. They don't know what the assembly guys want. And luckily I haven't shot myself in the foot yet on that type of thing. But I'm wondering, it sounds like from looking at all the design outputs, you guys can actually tell when there's going to be a problem and be able to really advise how the design needs to change to make sure that you don't have low yield or you don't have bridging, or you don't have solder problems or whatever it's going to be.

Amit Bahl:
Yes. And I think that's where Sierra Circuits shines. We really always try to give good feedback to the designers. And so we have a customer portal that gives that feedback to the customer in real time, both from a PCB standpoint, as well as an assembly standpoint. And getting that feedback as a designer I think is critical because everyone has their areas of expertise. And a designer's expertise needs to be more manufacturing but really they're not a manufacturer. So getting that DFM/DFA feedback and really working with that fabricator and assembler, I think that's super critical. And so we share a lot of information with the customers in that regard in terms of how can they improve their design this time around and also next time around. So yeah, good point.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, yeah. [crosstalk 00:14:20]. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Amit Bahl:
No, no. So I was going to say that when we first get a file from a customer, so we look at that from first completeness of the data. So there are still lots of people who don't have proper document control and they'll miss the fab drawing or they won't send us the XY data or they're missing information. Or worse, they're sending us ODB data and Gerber data and not really giving us direction on which set of files to use. So for PCB manufacturing, we'll default to whatever we want if the designer doesn't tell us. For assembly, ODB is always better. So we'll look at the file set for completeness right when we get the data. And once the data set is good, that's when the DFM/DFA starts and then we'll feed back on the actual... If the route is too close to the edge of the board or the pads are too close to each other or the inner layer clearances aren't enough, that's where we look at all of that once the complete data set is good.

Zach Peterson:
So you mentioned sharing information back to the designer. What's the intermediary for that? Is that just through the website? Does that happen automatically? Do you guys have to put everything through full DFM/DFA first? Is it semi-automated?

Amit Bahl:
Yeah, I would call it semi-automated not fully automated yet. There's a person behind the portal keying in the information for the customer to see. And it's because you want to review the information that you post before you post it so that the information back to the designer is good and it's a real issue, it's not a false positive. I think that's important. So we still have lots of engineers who look at that every day and give the feedback in real time to the customer.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, yeah. And as far as the feedback, what is some of the most common feedback that you have to give to customers? What are some of the most common... Maybe not mistakes, because some sometimes a mistake could be electrically correct, electrically functional, if you could manufacture it, but you may not be able to manufacture it. So what are some of those most common pieces of feedback you have to give?

Amit Bahl:
Well, yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot of that. We spend a lot of our time looking at designs and I think one of the reasons why that question is not easy is because capabilities play on each other. So a very typical one I think most people know about now is the aspect ratio of plating a via. If you say, "What is your minimum, hole size to a fabricator?" And they say, "6-mil via." But you don't ask the next question, which is, "What aspect ratio can you support for plating?" Then that piece of information by itself is really useless because most fabricators are okay with 10:1, meaning if it's an .062 thick board and you have a 6-mil via you're going to drill it at eight and you can plate it down to six and aspect ratio's fine. So no issues.

Amit Bahl:
But then if you start talking about 100-mil thick board and still a 6-mil via, that's going to be a little harder for some fabricators to plate. So they can drill the hole, but then they can't plate it. So that's an example of how capabilities play on each other. To really understand that before you just dive into someone's website, read the capabilities and then try and design something. You should definitely talk to your fabricator and understand the design rules and learn what you don't know by sharing what your task is, what your plan is. And then getting some feedback early on.

Amit Bahl:
The biggest one that I like to talk about also is drill to copper. Design tools don't really have a good DFM for that internally or DRC, because they don't know what we're going to necessarily drill the via at. So in order to get would rule there, you have to increase your drills by let's say 3-mils, and then run your DRC again. And you'd want an 8-mil clearance from the edge of the hole wall to the next copper pad or copper feature. That's drill to copper by definition. And that's how you could possibly get around that and measure it early on. But we see drill copper as an issue all the time. And then as one of those examples of you can design it and it's electrically good, but it's really not manufactureable.

Zach Peterson:
And then I'm sure you would make the same recommendation or a similar recommendation about drill to drill.

Amit Bahl:
Exactly. Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah.

Amit Bahl:
Yeah, if you want do stitched vias make sure that your fabricator is comfortable with that many vias, make sure that the spacing between the vias is good. 8-mils is a rule of thumb.

Zach Peterson:
And it's not just like the pad to pad. It really is the drill to drill. Because I would think that the pad to pad could be generous and yet still you might violate the drill to drill limit.

Amit Bahl:
Yes. So the way the outer layers are built, you first drill the vias and then you will image the outer layer app for that. So you're aligning to what you drilled to get a good registration on the outer layer. So yeah, really it is about drill to drill.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. And I know exactly what you're saying. There is a lot of focus on the copper to copper, whether it's a copper pad or trace to some other element, whatever it may be. But yeah, not really so much on, on drill to drill.

Amit Bahl:
Yes. And one other comment on drill. So you were talking about a connected facility. So for drilling that's super important. So the PCB material will move after lamination. And so when that material moves, because the whole point of lamination you're melting your prepregs, they're filling in the peaks and valleys of the etched copper of the interlayers and things are moving around. So things are flowing, prepreg flows. And so when that movement is done, where do you drill? Because your interlayers have all shifted a little bit here and there, you have to optimize your drill to the material movement. So that material movement should be measured and fed to the drill machines so the drill machines can then optimize where they actually drill. So you're not drilling specifically to the Gerber data, you're drilling to basically the material movement and you're optimizing from there. So if your shop is not connected that way, then you're never going to get an accurate drill location. So it's really important to have that connected facility.

Zach Peterson:
That's a great point because especially with drilling, I think we focus a lot on wander, as the CNC moves around, it does accumulate some wander and that's fine. But I've never heard anybody bring up the fact that maybe the material settles after flow and maybe that misaligns some of the copper. That's an excellent point.

Amit Bahl:
Yeah. And when you're dealing with rigid-flex boards with different materials or high speed materials and low speed materials in the same stackup, two sublams, those types of designs, like the higher tech designs, that's where scaling becomes extremely important and a necessity to that build, [crosstalk 00:22:40] nice to have.

Zach Peterson:
What if there's a resin content mismatch between two different dielectrics? Does that worsen the problem or would you recommend trying to keep it as consistent as possible? Or does it even matter?

Amit Bahl:
Well, it's a good question. I think that let your fabricator decide what kind of materials they want to use. I think some people go as far as specifying the exact prepreg styles on the PCB stackup, but really let the fabricator decide what they want to do. Most good fabricators will lean towards a resin rich material. Both to get good, let's say, uniform electrical properties across the material, as well as it's easier to laser through. The glass bundles always cause a problem, both with wicking of plating and laser drilling. And I could go on and on. But yeah, so a good fabricator, even though the material's a little bit more expensive, would lean to more of a resin rich prepregs.

Zach Peterson:
And then how are they checking the movement or the misalignment after pressing? Is that just x-ray?

Amit Bahl:
Yeah, so we have machines called Pluritec and they x-ray into the board. They look for the fiducials to see how far they've moved and we re-register the drills to that or scale the drills to that.

Zach Peterson:
I see.

Amit Bahl:
If you don't have that machine that can look inside your boards, and if you don't have the statistical tools to realign your drills, then you'll never get a good, accurate drill.

Zach Peterson:
Okay. That's very interesting. And yet another reason to call your fabricator before you finalize your stackup and start doing your design. So great info.

Amit Bahl:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Zach Peterson:
So I mean. [crosstalk 00:24:38] Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead.

Amit Bahl:
Well, I was going to say something about a lot of the key is upfront when you're designing your board. And in the last year or two, the industry has been flipped on its head. So we see people, they never send us a final design and say, "Go build this." It starts off maybe two weeks before their design is done, they're sending us information to start going over whether it's the bill of material, if it's the bill of material, we're scrubbing it to make sure all the components are available and we're putting those components in stock so that when the design is done, there's no missing components or hard to find components or long lead time components. So that's totally different over the last couple years. Getting a stack from your fabricator is super important. So we've created a software tool that allows the customer to basically self-serve and get their own stackup and get a manufacturing ready stackup early on. So that engagement early on is key. And we're really thinking hard about that and how we could service the designer better in that area.

Zach Peterson:
So these are really your standard, or maybe not standard stackups, but they are based on your standard material stocks that you carry and what you have data to show is manufacturable with high yield?

Amit Bahl:
Exactly, yeah. We ran a bunch of design of experiments, they call it. So with these stackups to get this impedance we're 99.9% sure of everything. We ran so many design of experiments that we have our set database now. So if a customer is picking a stackup or building their stackup online with this tool, we're 99% sure everything's going to work out because we ran tests on that stackup already.

Zach Peterson:
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Well, that's great that customers can take advantage of that hard work that you guys have done ahead of time, rather than getting controlled impedance design all the way to the end. And then all of a sudden find out they have to change track widths on 100 different nets, which unfortunately I did early on a couple of times. So even I will admit that.

Amit Bahl:
It happens. It still happens today. But we're trying to eliminate these nuances to the manufacturing process that really caused lots of heartache to designers. So II think we got it right this time. So I'm excited about introducing that tool in 2022 to the designer community.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, that's excellent. I'm really interested to see that. And I think this is great that Sierra Circuits has made so much effort to create these resources for designers. Not all manufacturers do that. And I think it's shows the investment that you guys have in making the industry better and making the designer better. I think a lot of mom and pop shops, they're doing their best. And I think a lot of shops are just surviving. But it's remarkable that you guys have managed to get to the scale to the point that you are able to create those resources. And then I know that you also have an impedance tool. Is that also based on your guys' stackup data? Or how are you getting those values?

Amit Bahl:
Yeah, so we created... Impedance tools are all based on the laws of physics. So we really worked hard on building in all the proper models and all the equations into the tool and also real world data. So using a combination of both, it's not just a... What's the right way to say it? It's not based on just the equations, it's based on the reality of building your circuit board and what does the impedance actually look like?

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, and that's actually what I wanted to get down to was with the material properties, because it's one thing to read a value off the data sheet, but John Coonrod talks about this a lot is that the value on your data sheet is not actually the value that the signal sees. It depends on, number one, the actual transmission line, but also on how you actually do the measurement, and does the measurement match the actual line that you're going to get? So it sounds like you guys are incorporating the actual material data into what would normally be a theoretical model where you just have to, I don't want to say guess, but just plug in a value for dial electric constant.

Amit Bahl:
That's right. That's exactly right.

Zach Peterson:
Okay, yeah.

Amit Bahl:
Yeah, we're very excited about the impedance tool as well. And we're going to build it into the stackup.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, I was talking with someone at Altium a little while ago and he had always said it would be so cool if we had an extension where you could just click a couple buttons and the material properties come in. And then you could use one of the tools in the software or use their stackup or whatever it is to just automatically set your stackup parameters in the design tool. And then there's no more guessing. There's no more guessing as to the dielectric constant or anything like this.

Amit Bahl:
Yeah. And that would be a nice world to live in. But it does depend on the actuals, the results that you see. So when we're building controlled impedance board with lots of target layers, we're doing in-process cross sections to understand how did we etch? Did we etch well with intolerance, understanding the press out thicknesses after lamination, feeding that back into the model and making sure we're on track. So this is all in-process. And then when you get your final product, if you have good equipment, you can measure the actual trace on the board, rather than using just impedance coupons. Impedance coupons are the normal practice, and everyone including us. But if you can also measure on the board itself that speaks to reality and what the designer would actually see on their board.

Zach Peterson:
That's a great point. And we actually had a viewer question on one of the other videos that I did that was asking, "What happens if I take a test point on a high speed board and I put it off to the side, basically like a stub?" And so of course the conversation devolves into input impedance, which is an important concept, but you guys are actually measuring high speed signals on the finished board. How are you actually doing that? Are you just exposing a little bit of the copper at the driver in the receiver end? Are you taking advantage of a via? Are you placing a pad near the driver? How are you doing that?

Amit Bahl:
Exactly. All of the above, actually.

Zach Peterson:
All the above. Okay.

Amit Bahl:
Yeah.

Zach Peterson:
Whatever is easiest for you guys to probe is what it sounds like.

Amit Bahl:
Exactly. And talking to your fabricator at the design stage, that's where you can bake these things in. So if you're working on a high speed design, talk to them and understand how the testing's going to happen. Just getting a piece of paper at the end of the fabrication saying that, "Hey, we met your impedance requirements." That's not enough. You got to engage with your fabricator and understand the details. So designer has to take the time. So maybe that could be another New Year's resolution. Take the time with your fabricator.

Zach Peterson:
There you go. There you go. Ask him during the tour, right?

Amit Bahl:
Exactly.

Zach Peterson:
Exactly. Very cool. Yeah, well we've talked about a lot and I think this is all just unbelievably important information. And people like to call me a design expert, but I think that even if you're good at what you do, there's still time to learn something new. So this has been really great to talk to you on it. Is there anything else you want to tell us or you think we're good?

Amit Bahl:
No, I think we're great. Zach, Sierra has a lot coming out in the early parts of 2022. We have a new website we're launching full of good knowledge, knowledge based information. So if designers want to refresh themselves on what does manufacturing look like, what are the key things that they should be looking out for? They can go to our website, our new website, and see all that information there.

Zach Peterson:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And we'll link to you guys in the show notes so that people can check it out. I think we'll also link to some of the tools that you guys have so that people can go and try them out for themselves.

Amit Bahl:
That would be great.

Zach Peterson:
Yeah, absolutely. This has been great. And for anyone that's listening now, if you haven't signed up for AltiumLive 2022, go sign up at altium.com/summit. It'll be your chance to get a lot of great information, including insights just like we've been talking about today. And that'll be included in the show notes as well. Amit, thank you so much for taking some time to talk to us. This has been very insightful and I always love learning as much as I can from manufacturers.

Amit Bahl:
Thank you, Zach.

Zach Peterson:
Thank you.

Zach Peterson:
To everybody out there listening, don't stop learning and stay on track.