The Rise of Software-Defined Vehicles with Lenora Clark

Discover how software-defined vehicles are revolutionizing the automotive industry! Join Tech Consultant Zach Peterson in this episode of the OnTrack Podcast as he chats with Lenora Clark, Director of Autonomous Driving and Safety Technology at MacDermid Alpha Electronics Solutions.

The pair explore the latest advancements in autonomous driving, advanced automotive electronics, and the incredible technologies that are shaping the future of cars. From human-machine interfaces to EV charging infrastructure, this interview covers it all!

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Key Topics:

• The evolution of software-defined vehicles
• Autonomous driving technology
• Integration of advanced electronics in modern cars -
• The future of automotive innovations

Links:

Connect with Lenora here

Transcript:

Zach: Adding some, you know, really cool molded decorative electronics that maybe they do provide a very useful feature and they, you know, they create a nice user experience. If they inflate the price of the vehicle so much, no one's gonna want it.

Lenora: Yeah, the car maker won’t do that either. Okay. You know, they’re too, I think they pay too much attention. Not, I shouldn’t say too much attention. They pay significant attention to where the cost is going and what they’re offering you. You know, I think it’s, it’s a constant discussion in automotive specifically.

Zach: Hello everyone and welcome to the Altium OnTrack podcast. I’m your host, Zach Peterson. Today we’re talking with Lenora Clark, director of Autonomous Driving and Safety Technology at McDermott Alpha Electronic Solutions. Frequent viewers of the podcast may remember Lenora from an episode about a year ago. I’m very happy to have Lenora back on to talk about autonomous driving and all of the cool technology that goes into it. Lenora, thank you so much for being back on the podcast today.

Lenora: Thank you so much for having me.

Zach: Yes, absolutely. So, previously when we had talked you were with ESI Automotive and I think that was maybe a separate organization to McDermott Alpha. And I was wondering what’s the reason that McDermot McDermott, excuse me, opted to maybe reorganize and bring ESI automotive directly into McDermott’s Electronics Division?

Lenora: So, ESI Automotive was a strategic initiative to look at the market trends of the automotive industry, understand the direction and focus on mega trends like electric vehicles, autonomous driving, and then what we call smart surfaces. And that’s incorporating displays and electronics or decorative features in a vehicle with electronics. And as we analyzed the changes in the powertrain, the changes to the vehicle overall, there was such a significant growth in electronics and the need for more advanced electronics as well as just sheer volume of electronics. They felt it was better to house this knowledge, this customer support, and this information under our electronics division. Prior to that, it had been housed under our industrial division. You know, that there was a lot of chrome plating on vehicles elect decorative plating. And so we still support the automotive industry on our industrial side with various corrosion resistant coatings, decorative materials, and even thermal management materials. But just with the direction of the industry, it felt like a better move for us to house, like I said, this support and this knowledge under the electronics division. And so we’re happy to be part of the McDermott Alpha Electronics Solutions division.

Zach: You’ve brought up a few interesting things there, at least that go into a vehicle. It sounds like there’s a recognition that there’s maybe a fusion of the electronics with pretty much everything else that happens on a vehicle, whether it’s, you know, decorative or functional or what have you.

Lenora: Yeah, we see so many changes right now. You know, for a while we’ve said that this is a inflection point in the automotive industry and of course the change to the powertrain was a significant departure from the automotive industry, from the understanding and the, the knowledge that was behind the combustion engine. But now we see software defined vehicles and that’s gonna change our relationships, right. The consumer’s relationship with the vehicle, the way the vehicle’s gonna be sold, the way car makers are gonna make their money. So yeah, there’s just a significantly greater volume of electronics in the vehicle. And I think we also have to be aware of the complexity of those electronics, right? Just much more advanced IC substrate packages system on chip, really intricate high density PCB designs. And so we’re seeing all of that right now.

Zach: Now you just brought up a term which I think folks who don’t pay attention to the automotive industry might not be familiar with. And it’s a term I’ve heard but have not fully looked into and understood, which is software defined vehicles. Now, the prior instance where I’ve heard of software defined anything with software defined radio, I’ve never actually looked into software defined vehicles. So what is a software defined vehicle?

Lenora: So, a software defined vehicle gives the car maker the power, the ability to make over the air updates depending on how old your vehicle is right now, you may get, you may get information from the car maker that you need to bring the car in for maintenance. Maybe it’s just an annual maintenance or maybe something actually is gone wrong with the vehicle and it needs a maintenance. We also see that with many of the safety sensors, there’s constant learning from these vehicles and from these sensors. So as the vehicle learns more scenarios, the computer software can be updated again over the air. And so software defined vehicles, from a kind of technical standpoint, from the marketing standpoint, they give the car maker the ability for greater security, you know, in, in being able to improve things over the air. And then also situations where there could be lightweighting or reduced, you know, use of some, some hardware material.

Zach: I could imagine this allows the automaker to deliver new, new apps, new services to the vehicle as well, to kind of extend maybe its, maybe its lifetime increase, the range of experiences that the driver can have, those kinds of things.

Lenora: Yeah, I think you’re right. And I think what we see right now is just scratching the surface, right. Even as I’m explaining it to you, I’m thinking there’s probably so many iterations that we’ll see in the future that will improve not only the safety of the vehicle, but the user experience itself. And again, I kind of think of it as your relationship with the vehicle and, and how it’s serviced and how you interact with it. You know, I don’t, I have a relationship with my vehicle now through my phone, which I never thought I would, but I love the fact that I can see, oh, did I remember to lock the doors? Or how far has my charging come along today? And I just think that that’s a nice feature, a really nice feature to have. So I think that we will see more and more of this as we progress. And I, again, I think we’re just scratching the surface right now of what the car maker’s gonna be able to do and deliver to us as consumers.

Zach: Once you start saying that, you know, the manufacturer can serve new applications and experiences to you, I think one might wonder, are we gonna have like an app store for cars where third party developers can build these cool new programs and you can, you can buy it and you know, download it into your car.

Lenora: Yeah, I don’t know. But I expect we might be paying for our vehicle services differently than we have.

Zach: That was gonna be my next question. If, if cars are gonna become like SaaS platforms,

Lenora: And I can see that car makers might even build a lot of function into the vehicle, but not offer it to you unless you make the payment for that additional.

Zach: Sure, sure. Okay. So some of those features could be subscription based, license based, something like this.

Lenora: Yes. Very interesting.

Zach: And it’s, it, it’s funny because, you know, there, it seems like so many of these, these business models and, and things that we’ve done in the software world in the past, they just keep getting telegraphed into new areas. And I never would’ve thought that this would suddenly make its way into cars. But, you know, now an app store for cars, I mean, that would be a really cool idea. It’d be interesting to see what some, some third party developers come up with. 'cause that could be the big killer app that, you know, Tesla or Ford or whoever else just never thought of.

Lenora: Right. And I think that, you know, I don’t know if it’s generational, if just some of us are used to the driving experiences that we’ve had in the past, but I think the opportunities are significant in, in how it could be different if the consumer is willing to accept the changes and, and try a new experience. Right. I, I even think that’s the truth for electric vehicle. I have an all electric vehicle myself. I got it four years ago, and it almost felt like a little bit of an experiment to me as a technologist. I wanted to see what it was like. It’s, it’s an adjustment for sure. I don’t think it’s for everyone right now, but I love driving it. I absolutely love the response of this vehicle. And I have friends and family who’ve also driven EVs and just totally embraced some of that change, you know, and like I said, we have to look at this, this purchase, this model of the industry as different than we had in the past. I think that, like I said, it’s gonna open up opportunities. And you said it, like you said, it could be an amazing experience, amazing opportunity.

Zach: Sure, sure. And so one of the things, of course, that you focus on, aside from just the software-defined vehicles, is autonomous vehicles. It's right there in your job title. And so one of the things that I've always been interested in is, you know, what's the technology that's ushering in autonomous driving, whether it's, you know, semi-autonomous, somewhat guided by the driver, or eventually fully autonomous where you can, you know, sleep in the backseat. How close is the industry getting to that level where vehicles are really truly anonymous, not anonymous, excuse me, autonomous?

Lenora: I think, you know, there's already instances of autonomous driving out there. I think what the average consumer wants to know is how soon till my passenger vehicle is completely autonomous and that I feel like we have a long road on this, these levels of autonomy. You know, we look at different levels of autonomy through the society at, of automotive engineers. Everything is a stepping stone, right? Is a learning experience. Is an education for these vehicles to get to that next level to level four and level five, which would be full autonomy. So we have certain hardware, we have software connected to all that, that's continuously learning.

Zach: But if you look at how many vehicles are on the road today, what is the transition to get all of those vehicles into full autonomy? It's a long road, right? It's a significant cost associated to it. Buy-in from the consumer. So I, and also just limitations right now from what the vehicles understand. You asked me what the technology entails, huge amount of sensors, right? Cameras, radar sensors, lidar, a lot of information, a lot of data being pulled in constantly through our telematics, which would be like advanced maps and things that are happening in the infrastructure. And then of course, AI plays into this. We have these advanced chips that are gathering information, learning, and then turning around and making decisions for these vehicles. So it's a significant undertaking. Like I said, there's instances of autonomy on the road today. A lot of trucking examples where people, people are making certain routes for autonomous trucking. But to see a full-blown autonomous passenger vehicle as mass production, I think we have a ways to go.

Zach: Now, the sensor aspect, I think that's really interesting. It's an area I've worked in somewhat, but obviously not working directly with tier ones or working directly with the car manufacturers. You kind of don't see everything that's going on or what they're thinking. So what I'm wondering is, are the advanced best-in-class sensor solutions that are being developed or that are currently out there on the market? How far are they going beyond just computer vision? Because, you know, I mentioned this in our last podcast, right? We used to kind of ooh, and awe over the backup camera, you know, and then there was a, then there was a proximity sensor. So you know when you're gonna hit the car behind you, but at some point you keep adding more and more sensors, you're getting beyond computer vision to some extent. So how far are these solutions going beyond computer vision and maybe integrating data from a diversity of sensors to kind of create this perception of the world around a vehicle?

Lenora: So when I think about it, I think of exactly that, integrating these different systems, integrating information from cameras, from radar, from lidar, all at the same time. Sensor fusion is the term that the industry uses. We do see the individual sensors improving in their capabilities. One of the things is radar sensors. Radar sensors are getting much better at differentiating two objects that are close to each other, right? If you could differentiate on the side of the road, there's a truck, but in front of that truck or to the side of that truck is a bicycle, then you know that that bicycle may be making a move into the road, right? You have to differentiate those things. So we see that radar sensors are getting better at differentiating objects that are close together. It's also getting better at differentiating distance or refining the resolution of the distance in front of the vehicle or surrounding the vehicle. And I think the success that we see today, the level three driving that we see today is because of the sensor fusion. Because it's bringing in information from multiple different types of sensors. No one sensor is gonna be able to do everything. And I think that the industry has learned that and is capitalizing on the fact that bringing the information together is, is the way to go.

Zach: Yeah. You mentioned no one sensor can do everything. I like to go back to computer vision as an example where it really can't do everything. 'Cause with computer vision you can see an object in real time, but trying to be able to infer a range heading speed from a live stream of, of images coming from a camera, it's extremely computationally difficult. Whereas if you just take the camera, pair it up with another sensor, and that other sensor can do the range and speed and those kinds of measurements, now you've really got a system where in, in real time really you can identify multiple objects. And I think probably with advanced radars, track multiple objects simultaneously.

Lenora: Yes.

Zach: Yep. Okay. So that's actually, that's actually moving into the commercial space now for, for some of these more advanced autonomous solutions.

Lenora: Yes.

Zach: So this is maybe foreshadowing what's gonna be out there beyond just Tesla's autopilot solution.

Lenora: So I don't think we should confuse Tesla's autopilot with autonomous driving. It is a level two system, which means that it requires full awareness of the driver and, and interaction of the driver when the system is on. We do see the introduction of level three autonomous driving. Mercedes has a system out in the, the, the top of the line EQS and also believe that there's a Honda out there that has level three. I think we'll see more and more car makers introducing level three, but I don't think we should confuse full self-driving from Tesla as an autonomous system.

Zach: Okay. That's fair. That's fair. I'm sure Tesla will come out with some new version of it though, that meets the definition of level three at some point.

Lenora: Yes. I'm sure it's something that they're working on, but there's not.

Zach: Okay, that's fair. One of the things that also is, I don't wanna say always brought up in conjunction with, you know, autonomous driving, but I think there's this expectation that the two should come together at some point is electric vehicles and autonomous driving, right? Electric vehicles are more advanced, autonomous cars are more advanced. Why not mash 'em together and get, you know, a much more advanced vehicle. One thing I'm wondering though, is it, it seems like there's some lack of enthusiasm around electric vehicles. People like more advanced cars, they like the gadgets, but it seems like, you know, the, the enthusiasm for the electric version versus the ICE version is, is lacking. What, what do you make of that?

Lenora: I think the fact that infrastructure is behind is a, is a problem for the average consumer. Speaking specifically to the US we can see that there's not enough charging stations when you're out either on a long haul or, or out for a full day driving. So we need to see the infrastructure come up to speed, up to speed. That's not a great, a great analogy, but we need the, we need the electric EV charging infrastructure to proliferate greater through North America. And we've seen some countries do a really good job, and I think in North America we're behind on that. And, and as a result, you get people that are hesitant, you know, especially in the US when we're used to driving far distances, long distances and don't wanna have to wonder if we're gonna be able to charge or not.

Zach: Yeah. And I think one wild card is what happens if my charge runs out in the middle of nowhere, you know, who am I gonna call?

Lenora: My car actually parks itself, but that's as far as I'm gonna get.

Zach: Yeah, I was gonna say, that's pretty cool, but what are you gonna do about it? How are you gonna get it back home?

Lenora: Yeah, exactly. It's just gonna park itself on the side of the road, you know, it is at this point, it's a lifestyle change. It is more planning when you go on a trip and, and that's where we're behind, right? People can't imagine that because when you're driving now there's gas stations everywhere, right? You can even be on a corner and there could be multiple gas stations on that same corner. So one of the things my research says is that when, when there was an introduction of electric vehicles, it wasn't, there was no return on investment for companies that were investing in them. There weren't enough people driving electric vehicles for them to invest more and create a larger infrastructure. Now we see more people purchasing EVs, we see the numbers coming up, you know, making a, a, a jump each year. And now we see states and we see companies that are starting to gain revenue from EV charging infrastructure. This, I believe will make more companies invest in it, even companies like Target or Walmart, they will see the value in putting EV charger, their own EV chargers in their parking lots and then, you know, gaining revenue from there and, and continuing to build the infrastructure from there.

Zach: Okay. That, that's interesting because I, it addresses one of the, the challenges I guess to, you know, increasing investment. And I think it's important to have private investment that, that drives the build out of this infrastructure. And you know, of course, does it pencil out financially is really important. Are there technical issues that create an issue with the user experience for that, that are maybe blocking investment? Like why hasn't Target done, let's say much more, why hasn't Walmart invested in like a Walmart electric charging, you know, solutions kind of division that goes around and puts these charging stations in all their parking lots?

Lenora: Yeah, I think before it was just simply numbers, how many of their customers were actually driving electric vehicles and now the numbers are changing. So maybe it's, it's more attractive to them from our perspective, mine and yours, you know, in the electronics industry, this is an electronic unit that's sitting outside all the time, you know, in a harsh environment. And I think as designers and material suppliers, we need to think about what's actually in there, protecting these systems and giving them the longevity that they need. A lot of times you can pull up to an EV charger and it's broken. So as an industry, we need to provide better materials for them or they need to invest in, in different options, different materials. And then also there are sometimes issues with connecting the software, and that seems to have improved dramatically over the past few years. So I don't know if that's really in my, in my personal experience, that doesn't seem to be an issue, but I do have many discussions, constant discussions internally and externally about the reliability, the robustness of the electronics that are housed in these systems. And so I think that's an opportunity for us as an industry overall.

Zach: Okay. Yeah, I think the reliability point is, is pretty fair. And I can see how that's a major challenge to convincing a company to invest in, in some of this stuff because, you know, if they invest in a bank of chargers and it fails in three years, you know, what's it worth? I mean, it's, it's really not a good investment. I think the other side of that coin with, with the growth of the charging infrastructure is, you know, there is public investment in some ways. Has the, the public investment helped to spur the private investment. I, I think at the end of the day, the private investment is really gonna be like the magic bullet that really causes all these charging stations to proliferate. I don't, I don't think it should be, you know, on the back of taxpayers, but I think you need a little bit of that. So has that really helped to, you know, drive the investment locally and, and improve the growth of charging availability?

Lenora: I don't know the answer to that, to be honest. I don't know the answer to that.

Zach: Okay.

Lenora: I thought you were saying you were doubting our, our government in investing in the infrastructure itself.

Zach: Well, I'm, I'm permanently skeptical to, to be fair.

Lenora: I think that's fair.

Zach: Yeah. I'm permanently skeptical when they do and when they don't. So, you know, I think it's, I think it's important for, you know, those of us kind of in the positions we're into be constant critics of that, and I think that's totally fair. But you know, the, the private investment issue, I mean, it, it comes in two sides, right? It comes in the, the capacity, but then also there has to be an investment in just new types of systems. You know, what is the user experience for those systems? How much capacity can they, can they handle? Is there standardization across the charger and all the different vehicles? What, what is that landscape looking like?

Lenora: I, I think we're seeing more and more unity of how the industry looks at these things, right? We see more and more of the tier ones and the car makers coming together to make these, I don't wanna say decisions, but to make standards and to make a more universal approach so that things can happen faster, right? We see evidence of this in, in IPC and the standards specifically for automotive. So we see more collaboration, we see car makers with joint ventures with each other. We see joint ventures with new entrants as well as tier ones. Because there is this acceleration of that, of that space that we didn't have before, you know, design in the automotive industry before it could take years for something to be designed and then come into mass production. That timeline is dramatically shortened now. And so I think that all of these different entities working together is gonna give us, you know, the infrastructure that we need specifically for EV charging, but I think it's gonna give us other advances that, that, you know, maybe we wouldn't have had before because of the collaboration.

Zach: And, and we're in the US right now, I think we're, you know, sitting here kind of talking from the US perspective, but obviously EVs are a global thing, right? And China being a big producer and trying to, you know, do a lot of exporting of EVs into Europe and even into the US I think that then begs the question, what does the infrastructure look like in China?

Lenora: So China has significant backing from their government for their EV charging infrastructure. I think the other big difference, and this kind of takes us a little step off of EV, but the other big difference in China is they're making a conscious decision to focus on user experience. So when you're in the vehicle, it's a different experience and they're selling that as a differentiator. They're putting this into electric vehicles. So if you want the latest and greatest, if you want some different experience when you're in the vehicle, whether that be more displays or a different aesthetic, you know, a different look to the vehicle, you're gonna get that in China very quickly, much faster than you get it in Europe or in US and from traditional car makers, from non-Chinese car makers. And so they're capitalizing on that. And that's, you know, another reason why there's more EV purchase in China than there is in other countries. You know, I, I mean there's pockets of countries of course in Europe that have done really well with, with the adoption of electric vehicles. So I don't wanna rule everything out, but I think that China has the backing of their government and the guts to fail, you know, the guts to take a chance on producing something that is not as reliable as what we're used to from the western world, but creates a different experience for their, for their consumers.

Zach: Okay. So the US market has higher standards just throughout the industry compared to the Chinese segment, and they, they're just not tested to the US standards.

Lenora: You know, I'm not, I'm not saying, you know, there's outliers there. It depends on what you're purchasing, but I think that there's more opportunities or more availability on the market for things that aren't as reliable as what we would get from a traditional car maker.

Zach: Okay. I understand what you're saying. So when we get more of this autonomy, you get more of these features in vehicles, you get more apps, you get more of all these cool gadgets, at some point humans need something to do when they're in the vehicle, whether it's sleeping in the backseat or you know, reading a book as they're driving down the highway. So how does this affect HMI in autonomous vehicles? What does the HMI, what the HMI gonna look like in the future?

Lenora: I think the HMI, the human machine interface dramatically changes. I think it's way more displays, I think it's a lot more electronics incorporated into decorative features. We start to see it now, they call it hidden till lit or shy technology where when you start to approach something, then you'll, you'll see a light come and then the feature, whether that be opening or closing the window or locking the door or something along those lines. So I think we'll see even more electronic decorative features, which is also kind of a human machine interface.

Zach: That's really interesting you bring that up because when I was with my wife shopping for a Jeep, we looked at a Grand Cherokee, and on the passenger side of the dashboard, they had this really cool printed, you know, key key interface and display. And it was, you know, the passenger could change the, the, the climate and the radio and everything like that. That was really interesting. And it was the first time I had ever seen that. And I mean, I haven't looked at, you know, luxury vehicles or anything, but I haven't really seen that in a lot of vehicles. I'm not looking at cars all the time.

Lenora: Yeah, we're starting to see it in BMW and some other vehicles now.

Zach: Oh, really? Okay. Yep. Okay. So I, I guess as that technology in terms of the fabrication, in terms of the design becomes more well known among automotive designers, maybe we could expect to see that proliferate out into maybe lower tier vehicles.

Lenora: Yeah, we could be called, it would be a, a form of in-mold, electronics, you know, molding the electronics into that, that plastic piece or the film, whatever it might be.

Zach: Okay. Are these all printed? Are they, they produced additively? What's, what's the process for for creating that?

Lenora: We have a process that's actually a flat film that we print a paste and then it gets injection molded or, or molded. But I think there's, there's other ways to do it, but it gives the car maker the opportunity to reduce the amount of pieces. If you can do it with a film, then you reduce the weight of glass and reduce the complexity of manufacture. So there are a lot of advantages to mold electronics, and I think for sure we will see it more and more in vehicles.

Zach: I'm, I'm sure with doing it on films, you could probably mold it around some pretty interesting curves and really do some cool decorative stuff.

Lenora: Yes, yes. But not any sharp angle. Not any sharp.

Zach: Okay. That's fair. That's fair. What about like VR, do you think we're gonna get, you know, AR or VR kind of implemented into the, the human machine interface in vehicles as these vehicles get more advanced? Maybe you can have, you know, a video game going as you're, as you're in the car.

Lenora: I guess the potential is there. I don't know how much I'm seeing it right now, you know, it's not, not really something that I'm seeing, but I guess the opportunity, yeah, never say never.

Zach: Right? Well, maybe that'll be one of the, the third-party apps that gets, gets developed and we'll have some version of Google Glass where you can do that in your car. So one, one thing that I noticed recently about the HMI area specifically is that it's projecting above 10% CAGR, and that's not really something you see across the other market segments, specifically for components and subsystems that go into vehicles. So is this all gonna be driven by those new experiences that are being implemented by the automotive industry?

Lenora: I think it's a couple reasons. Like I said, I think that if they could eliminate glass in the vehicle, the weight of the glass, that would be a significant advantage for, you know, extending range and just reducing the amount of waste and also potentially reducing, you know, environmental restrictions of creating glass and, and everything that goes with it, you know, the energy usage for, for sourcing it and, and then manufacturing with it. But I do think that the user experience is going to be very important, and that's why we both also see more of the, the human machine interface.

Zach: So in terms of all these systems that go into sensors and that go into HMI, decorative electronics, you know, kind of these curved and molded electronics, what are some of the reliability challenges? I, I think with sensors they're exposed on the exterior. So you have changing environmental conditions over time. Probably on the interior you've got mechanical risk, maybe somebody bumps, you know, bumps up against it repeatedly and eventually that causes it to fail. What, what are some of the reliability challenges that designers have to deal with?

Lenora: I think you have to look at the, the pieces differently. Yeah. In, as you said, internal and external obviously different, but when you're inside the vehicle, how much is it going to be touched? Is it gonna be touched with someone's fingernail repeatedly scratched, potentially? Is it not gonna be touched that much at all? And so I think you have to consider those things. And designers and car makers, you know, tier ones have to consider that when it comes to the parts that they're making. Temperature will always be a consideration. UV exposure will always be a consideration. And then replacement, you know, if something does go wrong, how do you fix it? You know, how do you, do you replace it completely? You know, what does that look like? And so I think that's more things that the, that the industry is looking into. And we're starting to see standards specifically for molded electronics.

Zach: That's interesting you bring up replacement because I think a lot of folks in, especially in the US are dealing with that, but not directly in terms of having to always go in and replace stuff, but more in terms of their insurance costs. Their insurance costs have gone way up because cars have more stuff in them. And of course, if something were to happen, that replacement cost is very high and it's hitting the insurers hard. I, I think, I, I remember hearing, I think on CNBC or another news outlet that's insurers were actually losing money up until last year in part due to these high replacement costs.

Lenora: I think it's definitely a reality because even, even the front windshield, right? If you have forward collision warning or automatic emergency braking, if you crack your windshield and they put an aftermarket windshield, it might not function the same. So already you're, you're having to use the, you know, the OEM windshield. So these are all considerations. And then the electronics cost in the vehicle is dramatically higher than what it was years ago. And so how do we as a society, do we as designers and and so forth come to grips with this? How do we make it a more circular economy? You know, it's not something that I used to, it's not a term that I used to use or was really familiar with, you know, for a long time people use the term sustainability as a buzzword. Now we have car makers that are talking about circularity. So we have to figure out, okay, first of all, where are we gonna source the materials? Secondly, you know, how are we gonna make this thing more reliable, extend the characteristic life of it, and then third, does it have another life after?

Zach: I, I think those are all fair questions. I mean, is that really what's needed to maybe get the, maybe not get the cost of the vehicles to drop necessarily, but to at least get the costs under control so that each new generation of the vehicle is not like grossly inflated with respect to the last generation? I mean, I, I, I say this because like adding some, you know, really cool molded decorative electronics that maybe they do provide a very useful feature and they, you know, they create a nice user experience. If they inflate the price of the vehicle so much, no one's gonna want it.

Lenora: Yeah. The car maker won't do that either.

Zach: Okay.

Lenora: You know, they're too, I think they pay too much attention. Not, I shouldn't say too much attention. They pay significant attention to where the cost is going and what they're offering you. You know, I think it's, it's a constant discussion. In automotive specifically. I think it's, it's a constant discussion in all industries, but the automotive industry, especially after the pandemic, is taking a hard look at their supply chain, the materials, you know, the whole aspect of their business and seeing what can we offer? And maybe if it's a safety feature, it's worth putting a little bit more money into that. And if it's a decorative feature, how can we do this so it really looks cool and gives the user the experience they want without breaking the back?

Zach: Well, it's, it's good to know that those discussions are going on, because I think if you ask just regular people who don't work in automotive or who don't work in electronics in general, they would look at car prices and, and even look at used car prices and they would say like, this is ridiculous. Who can afford this?

Lenora: I think you're totally right. I think you're totally right that people don't realize what it takes to get these features into a vehicle. And that the car, the automotive industry is constantly looking at how to save money, how to reduce costs, not only in their materials, but in their business overall. You know, what changes can they make to their business to make this a leaner manufacturing, a leaner business, and to pass that on to their consumers. I I, I think you're totally right. It's, it's a, it's a huge challenge for the automotive industry right now and for the consumers because there's that sticker shock. But how do you resolve this? I, I don't know.

Zach: Yeah, I think that's a big challenge. Well, not just in automotive, but in a lot of areas. And then one thing I think that we might need to worry about on that point with cost is around reshoring, onshoring for shoring, it, it is inherently inflationary. So I think there should be a legitimate worry that as more of those supply chains continue to be secured, unfortunately you get some inflation with that. And maybe that pushes against some of these efforts to try and reduce the cost of the raw labor automation, those kinds of investments.

Lenora: Yeah. I, I wanna look, you know, just kind of make two points. One is we see innovation like cons constantly continuing. Less than five years ago, the cost of a lidar sensor was $10,000. Right? Now it's more on the order of hundreds of dollars.

Zach: Wow.

Lenora: Right. So you can see, yeah, you can see it's, it's dramatically different. And the technology is different. It used to be on top of the vehicle, you know that spinning.

Zach: Yeah, I know the spinning thing.

Lenora: Yeah, it's spinning the spin, right? It's spinning equipment, and now they're putting these little pieces right above the, the headlights or right below the headlights. Right? So this is a small, small, solid state lidar, the innovation and the materials that they're using gives us the ability to have LIDAR in a, it's a, a luxury vehicle right now, but we couldn't have had that before. Right? So we have the innovation that goes with it. And then the second point I was gonna make was, I just read this morning about a white goods, a major white goods supplier that decided to look at their supply chain completely different than how they had done it before. And they are onshoring their manufacturing and it has dramatically changed their revenue stream because now you know, they're building for an order, they're not building for a target number because that they, because they know their white goods are sitting on a, a ship for six months, right? There's a lot of logistics that go into this and I think, you know, we, we talk about onshoring a lot, but looking at the, the entire supply chain as a whole, like you said, the materials that we start with the labor where we're building these things and, and I think there can be changes that it, that are advantageous to the consumer.

Zach: Okay. Okay. That's fair. And you know, me not working directly in manufacturing, I, I don't see all of that stuff all the time. So that's really interesting to hear that, you know, they're able to not just bring the manufacturing back, but change the business model around it in such a way that they can control the cost, make the investment pay off, and maybe fight some of those inflationary pressures that consumers really do pay attention to. As all of this, I think plays out and more development happens in autonomous vehicles. And EV and, and Onshoring, we would love to have you back on again to talk about all of this very interesting stuff.

Lenora: Yeah, I appreciate it went by quickly.

Zach: Oh, it did, it was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for being here today, Lenora.

Lenora: Thanks for having me.

Zach: We've been talking with Lenora Clark, director of Autonomous Driving and Safety Technology at McDermot Alpha Electronics Solutions. If you're watching on YouTube, make sure to hit the subscribe button, hit the like button. You'll be able to keep up with all of our podcasts and tutorials as they come out. And last but not least, don't stop learning, stay on track, and we'll see you next time. Thanks everybody.